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> Maybe there are some ways to decrease animal suffering without decreasing meat consumption? Please tell me it’s a sarcastic response. Sometimes i find hard

> Maybe there are some ways to decrease animal suffering without decreasing meat consumption? Please tell me it’s a sarcastic response. Sometimes i find hard to understand people. Even if studies are off, plant based diets have no negative side effects, can be cheaper, have positive environmental impact, reduce animal cruelty, people still want to find a “yeah but about...” honestly it is mind boggling.

BlargMcLarg 4y ago
>plant based diets have no negative side effects That's an extremely wild claim you'd better be ready to extensively support.
- hombre_fatal 4y ago
  How come it’s always meat diets that look the worst in nutritional studies? For example, it’s not oats and broccoli that increase LDL and apoB. Frankly at this point it seems that those who defend dietary meat are more in need of compelling evidence. Meanwhile the study people rally behind does something like replace beef with eggs, notice no worsening of cholesterol, to conclude that beef had no impact on blood lipids, for example.
  - BlargMcLarg 4y ago
    You're moving the goal post. Studies making "meat diets" look the worst does not equate to plant diets having "no side effects". Again, if you're making a claim that wild, back it up. >How come it’s always meat diets that look the worst in nutritional studies? Do yourself a favor and look up the actual comparisons. These are not health conscious meat diets vs health conscious vegan diets.
    - neuralRiot 4y ago
      > These are not health conscious meat diets vs health conscious vegan diets. Still, “no side effects” applies.
      - BlargMcLarg 4y ago
        That's not how that works. A few token comparisons detecting no side effects on what is measured does not mean there are zero side effects. "Zero side effects" is something far more difficult to prove and given all the anecdotes running around regarding ex-vegans, people who forget something important on the diet, people feeling better after eliminating a majority of plant-based foods, etc., I wish anyone a lot of luck trying to prove such a bold claim.
        neuralRiot 4y ago
        We’ve been eating different plants even before we could stand in 2 feet, plants with bad side effects would be known by now, don’t you think?
        BlargMcLarg 4y ago
        Do remind me of all the plants we were eating during winter, and all the plant-only diets people have been following for millennia. If you're trying to use a fallacy to make your argument, at least make a convincing one.
        neuralRiot 4y ago
        Do remind me of side effects of known edible plants. If you wanna be sarcastic at least stay on topic.
        netmonk 4y ago
        Are you even sure that most vegetable you are eating today even existed 500 years ago ?
adrian_b 4y ago
The plant based diets can very easily have very negative effects. Eating a plant based diet while avoiding the negative effects requires either much more diet planning than most people are used to do or spending more money on expensive dietary supplements than on the actual food. I have seen people becoming vegan in a careless way, which resulted in health problems. On the other hand, eating mostly vegetable food combined with a moderate amount of animal food, that is much easier to do without problems.
- neuralRiot 4y ago
  Eveyone knows somebody that almost died after a week of trying veganism. You can take a look at the major killer diseases reasons and see how a diet that “requires much less planning” works for the majority. What are those “expensive dietary supplements”?
  - adrian_b 4y ago
    For example, by weight I eat almost only vegan food. Nevertheless, I make 2 exceptions from 100% vegan food. I typically eat daily around 50 grams of chicken liver and one spoon of cod liver oil, which provide all the organic substances that are not available or available in too small quantities in vegetables, e.g. vitamin B12, vitamin D, EPA, DHA, choline, taurine. There are vegan supplements for all those substances, but they would indeed cost more per day than all the food that I eat normally. Even if I could afford that, I would consider that as an irrational choice. For example, non-animal sources of long-chain omega-3 fatty acids cost about 8 times more than fish oil (per fatty acid content). The cod liver oil costs me about $0.60 per day, so a vegan supplement would be about $4.80 per day. Where I live, in Europe, all the food that I eat in a day costs me normally no more than $5 per day, so already only one of the vegan supplements would cost as much as the current complete daily meals. Moreover, previously I was making an extra exception and I was taking most of my protein intake from turkey breast or chicken breast. With the proteins provided by food that was almost pure animal protein, there was a considerable freedom in choosing all the other food sources. However, removing meat from the diet makes it extremely difficult to eat enough proteins without exceeding the daily energy intake for a sedentary life, unless you are willing to waste money by buying plant protein extracts that are much more expensive than meat. While I have found a combination that provides enough proteins without providing too much calories, it does not have any degree of freedom, so removing meat from the diet has forced the introduction of a fixed part of the diet that cannot be easily changed from day to day, for more variety.
Spinnaker_ 4y ago
> Please tell me it’s a sarcastic response. I eat meat. It's either fish I catch and kill myself, or 4H cattle. I'm pretty sure it involves less animal suffering than someone eating factory farmed chickens, no? If you care about animal suffering, shouldn't you encourage people to take steps in the right direction?
- neuralRiot 4y ago
  Add people who “only buy meat from my uncle’s farm” and “i fish my own fish ” and “i hunt my meat” to the “I know a vegan who almost died” box. If you care about animal suffering you can’t go out and kill them for a sandwich.
  - eimrine 4y ago
    If you care about animal suffering you can’t go out and kill them for a sandwich. Why do you think killing an animal always means suffering? Aren't there no ways to kill an animal without causing them any suffering?
    - netmonk 4y ago
      And how many animals die from crop farming ? How many bees have to die for your beloved almond milk ? Living creature aren’t only cow beef sheep and chicken…
      - neuralRiot 4y ago
        Add that to the box too, what do you think farm animals eat, grass? 80% of global edible crops are fed to livestock, so if your concern is crop deaths, stop eating meat ASAP. As for almond milk, I don’t even remember last time i had some, oat is much better.
    - neuralRiot 4y ago
      How killing something that doesn’t want to die will not be suffering. Do you inderstand that you are arguing that it’s right to take a life for 5 mins of sensory pleasure?
eimrine 4y ago
>> Maybe there are some ways to decrease animal suffering without decreasing meat consumption? > Please tell me it’s a sarcastic response. I asked to give some measures of animal suffering, if you are talking about reducing animal cruelty so why so-called cruelty is bad? > Sometimes i find hard to understand people. I experience the same feelings when I use to propose people to get rid of their cars as I did. Positive environmental impact, better for your health, no negative side effects if your bicycle has enough big bicycle trunk, of course bicycle is way cheaper which allows you to work less and spend more time to cycling... What's wrong with all those people?
- neuralRiot 4y ago
  > I asked to give some measures of animal suffering, if you are talking about reducing animal cruelty so why so-called cruelty is bad? Seriously, do we need a long and boring thread about existentialism to understand something, (and i’m gonna have throw a figurative number I clarify it before you ask me to cite the source) 90% of the civilized world agrees is bad? I guess not, so I’m gonna explain it like you’re 5: “Don't do unto others what you don't want done unto you.” As simple as that. As for the car, what would you say anybody can do tomorrow no matter what they do for a living or how much they earn, give up their car or change to a plant-based lifestyle?
  - eimrine 4y ago
    > 90% of the civilized world agrees is bad? 90% of people with higher education do not understand logarithms, consider astrology and/or religion as a working thing, etc. Science remembers some cases when 99.999% of civilized world used to be wrong about something. > Don't do unto others what you don't want done unto you. Cattle is not "others", they are way closer to things then to people. They do not understand conception of self and death, they will not grieve seeing death of their friends or relatives, they will never write a "Romeo and Juliet". Don't you consider a potato as that kind "others"? But if you throw a potato not in a boiling water but in a wet ground it will be possible to see that potato is a living thing. I agree when somebody is talking about climate impact or health of a diet. But when, after hours of manual labor in an unheated workshop, I go on my lunch break, I read about the suffering of animals with such loud laughter that I can't believe that anyone is talking about it seriously. > As for the car, what would you say anybody can do tomorrow no matter what they do for a living or how much they earn, give up their car or change to a plant-based lifestyle? The Lindy effect?

BlargMcLarg 4y ago

>plant based diets have no negative side effects That's an extremely wild claim you'd better be ready to extensively support.

hombre_fatal 4y ago
How come it’s always meat diets that look the worst in nutritional studies? For example, it’s not oats and broccoli that increase LDL and apoB. Frankly at this point it seems that those who defend dietary meat are more in need of compelling evidence. Meanwhile the study people rally behind does something like replace beef with eggs, notice no worsening of cholesterol, to conclude that beef had no impact on blood lipids, for example.
- BlargMcLarg 4y ago
  You're moving the goal post. Studies making "meat diets" look the worst does not equate to plant diets having "no side effects". Again, if you're making a claim that wild, back it up. >How come it’s always meat diets that look the worst in nutritional studies? Do yourself a favor and look up the actual comparisons. These are not health conscious meat diets vs health conscious vegan diets.
  - neuralRiot 4y ago
    > These are not health conscious meat diets vs health conscious vegan diets. Still, “no side effects” applies.
    - BlargMcLarg 4y ago
      That's not how that works. A few token comparisons detecting no side effects on what is measured does not mean there are zero side effects. "Zero side effects" is something far more difficult to prove and given all the anecdotes running around regarding ex-vegans, people who forget something important on the diet, people feeling better after eliminating a majority of plant-based foods, etc., I wish anyone a lot of luck trying to prove such a bold claim.
      - neuralRiot 4y ago
        We’ve been eating different plants even before we could stand in 2 feet, plants with bad side effects would be known by now, don’t you think?
        BlargMcLarg 4y ago
        Do remind me of all the plants we were eating during winter, and all the plant-only diets people have been following for millennia. If you're trying to use a fallacy to make your argument, at least make a convincing one.
        neuralRiot 4y ago
        Do remind me of side effects of known edible plants. If you wanna be sarcastic at least stay on topic.
        netmonk 4y ago
        Are you even sure that most vegetable you are eating today even existed 500 years ago ?

adrian_b 4y ago

The plant based diets can very easily have very negative effects. Eating a plant based diet while avoiding the negative effects requires either much more diet planning than most people are used to do or spending more money on expensive dietary supplements than on the actual food. I have seen people becoming vegan in a careless way, which resulted in health problems. On the other hand, eating mostly vegetable food combined with a moderate amount of animal food, that is much easier to do without problems.

neuralRiot 4y ago
Eveyone knows somebody that almost died after a week of trying veganism. You can take a look at the major killer diseases reasons and see how a diet that “requires much less planning” works for the majority. What are those “expensive dietary supplements”?
- adrian_b 4y ago
  For example, by weight I eat almost only vegan food. Nevertheless, I make 2 exceptions from 100% vegan food. I typically eat daily around 50 grams of chicken liver and one spoon of cod liver oil, which provide all the organic substances that are not available or available in too small quantities in vegetables, e.g. vitamin B12, vitamin D, EPA, DHA, choline, taurine. There are vegan supplements for all those substances, but they would indeed cost more per day than all the food that I eat normally. Even if I could afford that, I would consider that as an irrational choice. For example, non-animal sources of long-chain omega-3 fatty acids cost about 8 times more than fish oil (per fatty acid content). The cod liver oil costs me about $0.60 per day, so a vegan supplement would be about $4.80 per day. Where I live, in Europe, all the food that I eat in a day costs me normally no more than $5 per day, so already only one of the vegan supplements would cost as much as the current complete daily meals. Moreover, previously I was making an extra exception and I was taking most of my protein intake from turkey breast or chicken breast. With the proteins provided by food that was almost pure animal protein, there was a considerable freedom in choosing all the other food sources. However, removing meat from the diet makes it extremely difficult to eat enough proteins without exceeding the daily energy intake for a sedentary life, unless you are willing to waste money by buying plant protein extracts that are much more expensive than meat. While I have found a combination that provides enough proteins without providing too much calories, it does not have any degree of freedom, so removing meat from the diet has forced the introduction of a fixed part of the diet that cannot be easily changed from day to day, for more variety.

Spinnaker_ 4y ago

> Please tell me it’s a sarcastic response. I eat meat. It's either fish I catch and kill myself, or 4H cattle. I'm pretty sure it involves less animal suffering than someone eating factory farmed chickens, no? If you care about animal suffering, shouldn't you encourage people to take steps in the right direction?

neuralRiot 4y ago
Add people who “only buy meat from my uncle’s farm” and “i fish my own fish ” and “i hunt my meat” to the “I know a vegan who almost died” box. If you care about animal suffering you can’t go out and kill them for a sandwich.
- eimrine 4y ago
  If you care about animal suffering you can’t go out and kill them for a sandwich. Why do you think killing an animal always means suffering? Aren't there no ways to kill an animal without causing them any suffering?
  - netmonk 4y ago
    And how many animals die from crop farming ? How many bees have to die for your beloved almond milk ? Living creature aren’t only cow beef sheep and chicken…
    - neuralRiot 4y ago
      Add that to the box too, what do you think farm animals eat, grass? 80% of global edible crops are fed to livestock, so if your concern is crop deaths, stop eating meat ASAP. As for almond milk, I don’t even remember last time i had some, oat is much better.
  - neuralRiot 4y ago
    How killing something that doesn’t want to die will not be suffering. Do you inderstand that you are arguing that it’s right to take a life for 5 mins of sensory pleasure?

eimrine 4y ago

>> Maybe there are some ways to decrease animal suffering without decreasing meat consumption? > Please tell me it’s a sarcastic response. I asked to give some measures of animal suffering, if you are talking about reducing animal cruelty so why so-called cruelty is bad? > Sometimes i find hard to understand people. I experience the same feelings when I use to propose people to get rid of their cars as I did. Positive environmental impact, better for your health, no negative side effects if your bicycle has enough big bicycle trunk, of course bicycle is way cheaper which allows you to work less and spend more time to cycling... What's wrong with all those people?

neuralRiot 4y ago
> I asked to give some measures of animal suffering, if you are talking about reducing animal cruelty so why so-called cruelty is bad? Seriously, do we need a long and boring thread about existentialism to understand something, (and i’m gonna have throw a figurative number I clarify it before you ask me to cite the source) 90% of the civilized world agrees is bad? I guess not, so I’m gonna explain it like you’re 5: “Don't do unto others what you don't want done unto you.” As simple as that. As for the car, what would you say anybody can do tomorrow no matter what they do for a living or how much they earn, give up their car or change to a plant-based lifestyle?
- eimrine 4y ago
  > 90% of the civilized world agrees is bad? 90% of people with higher education do not understand logarithms, consider astrology and/or religion as a working thing, etc. Science remembers some cases when 99.999% of civilized world used to be wrong about something. > Don't do unto others what you don't want done unto you. Cattle is not "others", they are way closer to things then to people. They do not understand conception of self and death, they will not grieve seeing death of their friends or relatives, they will never write a "Romeo and Juliet". Don't you consider a potato as that kind "others"? But if you throw a potato not in a boiling water but in a wet ground it will be possible to see that potato is a living thing. I agree when somebody is talking about climate impact or health of a diet. But when, after hours of manual labor in an unheated workshop, I go on my lunch break, I read about the suffering of animals with such loud laughter that I can't believe that anyone is talking about it seriously. > As for the car, what would you say anybody can do tomorrow no matter what they do for a living or how much they earn, give up their car or change to a plant-based lifestyle? The Lindy effect?