6 ms·

I am 100% on board with the repairability, sustainability, and compatibility mission of Framework, but I absolutely hate the way they did these choices of only

I am 100% on board with the repairability, sustainability, and compatibility mission of Framework, but I absolutely hate the way they did these choices of only 4 expansion cards. A Thinkpad T14 Gen 3 [1] is 2mm thicker than the Framework, but has more than enough room for an RJ-45 ethernet port, 2 USB-C ports, 2 USB-A ports, 1 HDMI, a SD card slot, and a smartcard reader (maybe an edge case, but still). That's 8 ports, plus the headphone jack that is built in to both. If I bought a framework, I'd need to carry multiple expansion cards to have those same connectivity options, plus that RJ45 is going to stick out and probably wouldn't be good to put in a bag while attached to the laptop. I see so much hype about Framework, but does this seem wrong to anyone else? Edit: Since this got a lot of replies, I do get the benefits of an expansion slot. Put one on each side, that should be plenty. But fill the rest of the laptop with the usual set of ports in a motherboard that I can easily repair. [1] https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/p/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpadt/thinkpad-t14-gen-3-(14-inch-intel)/len101t0014 https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/p/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpadt/th...

stingraycharles 4y ago
I ended up just buying additional expansion cards and swapping them on demand. I don’t often need HDMI/DP expansion cards so I just keep them around in case I need them, and have extra USB slots for normal days.
- humanistbot 4y ago
  Sounds like just another version of dongle hell. It is even worse for ports used less often, in my opinion. Last thing I want is to realize I want to hook my laptop up to a TV and I can't find or forgot my HDMI dongle, or want to flash an SD card and can't find my SD card dongle...
  - mox1 4y ago
    And 5 years from now when USB-C 11.6rev5 (with a new 100pin physical connector) is commonplace for our 8k Displays, framework laptop owners can spend $40 to buy a new "dongle". The Lenovo owners will be buying a new laptop (or a Dongle / dock. something that physically hangs off the laptop). Repeat this process as every external connector changes physical layout, non backwards compatible change, etc. There is no perfectly forward and backward compatible laptop port layout. Lenovo does it one way (which some people like). Framework has gone a different direction (which a lot of other people seem to like).
    - humanistbot 4y ago
      I can see the point of one, maybe two expansion slots. But not the way they did it with four and only four ports. Edit: Also, this ethernet expansion card this thread is about also physically hangs off the laptop.
    - bryanlarsen 4y ago
      Framework dongles are just a fancy form factor for USB4/TB4. Lenovo and Framework will have exactly the same support for USB11.6.
  - stingraycharles 4y ago
    It’s really not too bad, but I guess it depends on your use case. Would be great if they could release a dual USB-A expansion slot though, the bandwidth should not be a problem. Or maybe redesign the expansion slots to be more slim so they could fit 6 in a laptop.
mixmastamyk 4y ago
Hate? It's a small laptop, and I feel generally well-designed. Sure it could have more, for example I think the USB-C card should have two ports. I think they are trying to give them enough space for bulky cables, etc. But two small ports should fit in one card. But it isn't "bad" in any sense of the word. More cards and they'd have to make the motherboard bigger. Maybe on a future 15"?
kube-system 4y ago
Modularization inherently requires much more space than integrated components. So you either need to have a much larger chassis to support the same number of components, or you need to have fewer components for a similar sized chassis.
- jmole 4y ago
  USB-C / Thunderbolt dongles are modular, that's why this seems sort of silly.
- zbuf 4y ago
  Would it have been possible to have modularisation, but with internal modules? I know nothing about industrial design, and no doubt this must have been considered. What would be the trade offs the designers faced? Seems this modular design uses a lot of layers of chassis and space.
  - kube-system 4y ago
    Connectors inherently need to reach the outside of the device, and they're all different shapes and sizes. At a minimum you need to reserve as much external space, per module, as you expect the largest module will need to expose. For devices that don't have external connectors, modular devices are already common, like M.2.
je_bailey 4y ago
No? But that might be because I don't need the same options as you do. I however do like the dual HDMI, USB-C, and the extra storage I added to my framework and since your Thinkpad only has 1 HDMI output I think that's rather odd. It's 2mm thicker how do you handle the lack of a second HDMI port?
- hbgl 4y ago
  I cannot imagine a realistic scenario in which I would need two HDMI ports on the laptop. When I need to connect more than one screen (home, work) I would always use a docking station.
andrewia 4y ago
There has always been a trade-off between modularity and size. Each card is effectively a USB-C/Thunderbolt dongle, so they need to be big enough to fit a reasonable amount of electronics (like 1TB of NAND, or an Ethernet IC) plus the shell and connectors. If your needs are basic (just USB, 3.5mm, 1x HDMI etc.) then you should get the Thinkpad. But if you want modularity for special cases (e.g. triple HDMI, double Ethernet, or triple MicroSD readers) or if you like to move your ports to alternating sides of your laptop, then the Framework's expansion system is for you. Framework is inherently a compromise between thickness and modularity (also why I assume it uses an internal battery) in a 14" portable laptop. Perhaps a new generation could shoehorn in a non-card USB-C port, although that would break their design rule that all ports support Thunderbolt.
- GekkePrutser 4y ago
  At least one USB-C should be standard (not modular) though. That way you can always charge it easily without the modules installed.
  - yepguy 4y ago
    The modules themselves connect to the laptop via USB-C ports, so if you don't have a USB-C module you can still charge it by removing another module.
    - tomrod 4y ago
      Depends on your power adapter. My bog-standard one I use with my Framework is a Best Buy standard. It is just a little too thick to fit into the recessed USB-C when the adapter is removed.
- ghostpepper 4y ago
  > triple HDMI, double Ethernet, or triple MicroSD readers Is that really the niche that Framework is targeting? I thought it was meant to be a generally appealing laptop with expansion options like laptops used to have. How much physical space does 1TB of NAND really take up anyway?
stormbrew 4y ago
Since they're all full fledged tb4 ports they're likely limited in the number they can put in. Other laptops are just building in a separate USB root for multiple ports off once tb channel. They could have maybe laid them out in a way that would have made making double-wide modules easier or something though, maybe.
skadamat 4y ago
I mean, to be fair, it's just their first product / platform? In a few years, imagine having way more form factors and options here to support what you're looking for.
henearkr 4y ago
In a near future they could easily go for a very simple solution which is to provide expansion cards featuring multiple connectors (or storage etc) at a time.
guerby 4y ago
My laptop before frame.work was a Dell 7480 with more ports than the frame.work. But on my Dell two of those ports the USB-C and the RJ45 no longer work anymore and I can't fix them ... Something that won't happen (at least not as fast) on my frame.work.
GekkePrutser 4y ago
This yeah, and the Thinkpad has a better keyboard and great matte displays. The latter is a must-have for me. Even the versions with touch are matte!
JamesAdir 4y ago
And what will happen when you'll want more than the 16GB soldered memory? Or one of the memory modules will fail? The Framework offer the best solution for this situation, and the Thinkpad (as much as I love their older models) don't.
- humanistbot 4y ago
  Well the T14 does have one SODIMM slot that takes up to a 32GB module, for a total of 48GB. But I don't want 16GB of soldered memory. I'm not some Lenovo shill trying to sell people on the new thinkpads, I hate what Lenovo has done to the classic line. I would be so incredibly happy for framework to take Lenovo's place. But I need more than 4 ports and have such a hate for carrying adapters, because I've been burned in critical situations after losing an adapter.
ycta23342098 4y ago
Ironically one of the top complaints from mainstream laptop reviewers was that the Framework was too thick compared to a Macbook Air or Razer Blade. I too would have preferred a slightly thicker device with more ports, but you can't please everyone.
kube-system 4y ago
> fill the rest of the laptop with the usual set of ports in a motherboard that I can easily repair. Where exactly does "easily repair" mean? It all depends on who the end user is. Consider three very different users: 1. Expert: Replacing connectors on motherboards is not particularly hard for someone with experiencing soldering surface mount components. 2. Intermediate: Many laptops have modular barrel connector subcomponents that are easy to replace for anyone who is comfortable opening laptops. 3. Non-technical: Many consumers are uncomfortable opening laptops at all. Many have thrown away laptops with modular batteries. Because there are lots of different users on different levels of technical ability, creating a "repairable" laptop can mean a lot of different things depending on where you draw the line.
- cesarb 4y ago
  > Many laptops have modular barrel connector subcomponents that are easy to replace for anyone who is comfortable opening laptops. That's one thing that makes me a bit uncomfortable about the current trend to use only USB-C for charging. At least on my current laptop (and I believe many other models from the same manufacturer), the "traditional" barrel connector is separate from the motherboard, connected to it by a short length of wire, while the USB-C connector is soldered directly to the motherboard and reinforced by a piece of metal. Any mechanical stress to the charging cable (for instance, from tripping on it) will go to the chassis for the barrel connector, but for the USB-C connector it will go directly to the motherboard.
hbgl 4y ago
I would buy a Thinkpad over the Framework laptop in a heartbeat. Better keyboard (actual arrow keys!), track point, better hinges, matte screen, more ports, better warranty options. The only real negative is that Lenovo chose to solder the RAM in newer models. Being able to reuse the chassis is good idea but the implementation is lacking.
- IE6 4y ago
  > Being able to reuse the chassis is good idea but the implementation is lacking. I find this statement interesting - could you expand on this? IIRC they just delivered on this promise which included (1) a new intel 12th gen mainboard as a drop-in replacement for their 11th gen mainboard and (2) an optional new chassis lid to resolve issues with the original chassis. Disclaimer: I'm both a Thinkpad and Framework fanboy.
  - hbgl 4y ago
    As I understand it, the big selling point for the 4 modular ports is that it allows future motherboards to fit the older chassis. The drawback is that you only have four ports to customize. What they could have easily done instead is to use the same port layout for as long as possible. Let's say Ethernet, 2x USB-A, HDMI, 3.5mm jack, and as many USB-C ports as they can reasonably fit. That would be good enough for at least 3 years and probably way longer. In my opinion 3-5+ years backwards compatibility is good enough. Of course this is only me saying this from my armchair.

stingraycharles 4y ago

I ended up just buying additional expansion cards and swapping them on demand. I don’t often need HDMI/DP expansion cards so I just keep them around in case I need them, and have extra USB slots for normal days.

humanistbot 4y ago
Sounds like just another version of dongle hell. It is even worse for ports used less often, in my opinion. Last thing I want is to realize I want to hook my laptop up to a TV and I can't find or forgot my HDMI dongle, or want to flash an SD card and can't find my SD card dongle...
- mox1 4y ago
  And 5 years from now when USB-C 11.6rev5 (with a new 100pin physical connector) is commonplace for our 8k Displays, framework laptop owners can spend $40 to buy a new "dongle". The Lenovo owners will be buying a new laptop (or a Dongle / dock. something that physically hangs off the laptop). Repeat this process as every external connector changes physical layout, non backwards compatible change, etc. There is no perfectly forward and backward compatible laptop port layout. Lenovo does it one way (which some people like). Framework has gone a different direction (which a lot of other people seem to like).
  - humanistbot 4y ago
    I can see the point of one, maybe two expansion slots. But not the way they did it with four and only four ports. Edit: Also, this ethernet expansion card this thread is about also physically hangs off the laptop.
  - bryanlarsen 4y ago
    Framework dongles are just a fancy form factor for USB4/TB4. Lenovo and Framework will have exactly the same support for USB11.6.
- stingraycharles 4y ago
  It’s really not too bad, but I guess it depends on your use case. Would be great if they could release a dual USB-A expansion slot though, the bandwidth should not be a problem. Or maybe redesign the expansion slots to be more slim so they could fit 6 in a laptop.

mixmastamyk 4y ago

Hate? It's a small laptop, and I feel generally well-designed. Sure it could have more, for example I think the USB-C card should have two ports. I think they are trying to give them enough space for bulky cables, etc. But two small ports should fit in one card. But it isn't "bad" in any sense of the word. More cards and they'd have to make the motherboard bigger. Maybe on a future 15"?

kube-system 4y ago

Modularization inherently requires much more space than integrated components. So you either need to have a much larger chassis to support the same number of components, or you need to have fewer components for a similar sized chassis.

jmole 4y ago
USB-C / Thunderbolt dongles are modular, that's why this seems sort of silly.
zbuf 4y ago
Would it have been possible to have modularisation, but with internal modules? I know nothing about industrial design, and no doubt this must have been considered. What would be the trade offs the designers faced? Seems this modular design uses a lot of layers of chassis and space.
- kube-system 4y ago
  Connectors inherently need to reach the outside of the device, and they're all different shapes and sizes. At a minimum you need to reserve as much external space, per module, as you expect the largest module will need to expose. For devices that don't have external connectors, modular devices are already common, like M.2.

je_bailey 4y ago

No? But that might be because I don't need the same options as you do. I however do like the dual HDMI, USB-C, and the extra storage I added to my framework and since your Thinkpad only has 1 HDMI output I think that's rather odd. It's 2mm thicker how do you handle the lack of a second HDMI port?

hbgl 4y ago
I cannot imagine a realistic scenario in which I would need two HDMI ports on the laptop. When I need to connect more than one screen (home, work) I would always use a docking station.

andrewia 4y ago

There has always been a trade-off between modularity and size. Each card is effectively a USB-C/Thunderbolt dongle, so they need to be big enough to fit a reasonable amount of electronics (like 1TB of NAND, or an Ethernet IC) plus the shell and connectors. If your needs are basic (just USB, 3.5mm, 1x HDMI etc.) then you should get the Thinkpad. But if you want modularity for special cases (e.g. triple HDMI, double Ethernet, or triple MicroSD readers) or if you like to move your ports to alternating sides of your laptop, then the Framework's expansion system is for you. Framework is inherently a compromise between thickness and modularity (also why I assume it uses an internal battery) in a 14" portable laptop. Perhaps a new generation could shoehorn in a non-card USB-C port, although that would break their design rule that all ports support Thunderbolt.

GekkePrutser 4y ago
At least one USB-C should be standard (not modular) though. That way you can always charge it easily without the modules installed.
- yepguy 4y ago
  The modules themselves connect to the laptop via USB-C ports, so if you don't have a USB-C module you can still charge it by removing another module.
  - tomrod 4y ago
    Depends on your power adapter. My bog-standard one I use with my Framework is a Best Buy standard. It is just a little too thick to fit into the recessed USB-C when the adapter is removed.
ghostpepper 4y ago
> triple HDMI, double Ethernet, or triple MicroSD readers Is that really the niche that Framework is targeting? I thought it was meant to be a generally appealing laptop with expansion options like laptops used to have. How much physical space does 1TB of NAND really take up anyway?

stormbrew 4y ago

Since they're all full fledged tb4 ports they're likely limited in the number they can put in. Other laptops are just building in a separate USB root for multiple ports off once tb channel. They could have maybe laid them out in a way that would have made making double-wide modules easier or something though, maybe.

skadamat 4y ago

I mean, to be fair, it's just their first product / platform? In a few years, imagine having way more form factors and options here to support what you're looking for.

henearkr 4y ago

In a near future they could easily go for a very simple solution which is to provide expansion cards featuring multiple connectors (or storage etc) at a time.

guerby 4y ago

My laptop before frame.work was a Dell 7480 with more ports than the frame.work. But on my Dell two of those ports the USB-C and the RJ45 no longer work anymore and I can't fix them ... Something that won't happen (at least not as fast) on my frame.work.

GekkePrutser 4y ago

This yeah, and the Thinkpad has a better keyboard and great matte displays. The latter is a must-have for me. Even the versions with touch are matte!

JamesAdir 4y ago

And what will happen when you'll want more than the 16GB soldered memory? Or one of the memory modules will fail? The Framework offer the best solution for this situation, and the Thinkpad (as much as I love their older models) don't.

humanistbot 4y ago
Well the T14 does have one SODIMM slot that takes up to a 32GB module, for a total of 48GB. But I don't want 16GB of soldered memory. I'm not some Lenovo shill trying to sell people on the new thinkpads, I hate what Lenovo has done to the classic line. I would be so incredibly happy for framework to take Lenovo's place. But I need more than 4 ports and have such a hate for carrying adapters, because I've been burned in critical situations after losing an adapter.

ycta23342098 4y ago

Ironically one of the top complaints from mainstream laptop reviewers was that the Framework was too thick compared to a Macbook Air or Razer Blade. I too would have preferred a slightly thicker device with more ports, but you can't please everyone.

kube-system 4y ago

> fill the rest of the laptop with the usual set of ports in a motherboard that I can easily repair. Where exactly does "easily repair" mean? It all depends on who the end user is. Consider three very different users: 1. Expert: Replacing connectors on motherboards is not particularly hard for someone with experiencing soldering surface mount components. 2. Intermediate: Many laptops have modular barrel connector subcomponents that are easy to replace for anyone who is comfortable opening laptops. 3. Non-technical: Many consumers are uncomfortable opening laptops at all. Many have thrown away laptops with modular batteries. Because there are lots of different users on different levels of technical ability, creating a "repairable" laptop can mean a lot of different things depending on where you draw the line.

cesarb 4y ago
> Many laptops have modular barrel connector subcomponents that are easy to replace for anyone who is comfortable opening laptops. That's one thing that makes me a bit uncomfortable about the current trend to use only USB-C for charging. At least on my current laptop (and I believe many other models from the same manufacturer), the "traditional" barrel connector is separate from the motherboard, connected to it by a short length of wire, while the USB-C connector is soldered directly to the motherboard and reinforced by a piece of metal. Any mechanical stress to the charging cable (for instance, from tripping on it) will go to the chassis for the barrel connector, but for the USB-C connector it will go directly to the motherboard.

hbgl 4y ago

I would buy a Thinkpad over the Framework laptop in a heartbeat. Better keyboard (actual arrow keys!), track point, better hinges, matte screen, more ports, better warranty options. The only real negative is that Lenovo chose to solder the RAM in newer models. Being able to reuse the chassis is good idea but the implementation is lacking.

IE6 4y ago
> Being able to reuse the chassis is good idea but the implementation is lacking. I find this statement interesting - could you expand on this? IIRC they just delivered on this promise which included (1) a new intel 12th gen mainboard as a drop-in replacement for their 11th gen mainboard and (2) an optional new chassis lid to resolve issues with the original chassis. Disclaimer: I'm both a Thinkpad and Framework fanboy.
- hbgl 4y ago
  As I understand it, the big selling point for the 4 modular ports is that it allows future motherboards to fit the older chassis. The drawback is that you only have four ports to customize. What they could have easily done instead is to use the same port layout for as long as possible. Let's say Ethernet, 2x USB-A, HDMI, 3.5mm jack, and as many USB-C ports as they can reasonably fit. That would be good enough for at least 3 years and probably way longer. In my opinion 3-5+ years backwards compatibility is good enough. Of course this is only me saying this from my armchair.