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Give everyone equal subsidizes under contract to deliver a set amount of energy on demand, with massive fines for contract breach. The market will then determin

by belorn 4y ago

Give everyone equal subsidizes under contract to deliver a set amount of energy on demand, with massive fines for contract breach. The market will then determine which ideas are economical viable, and which ideas aren't. This is what my government (Sweden) is actually doing, with one difference. Rather than a liability contract, if the investment fail the government will simply repay the investors regardless if it managed to deliver energy. The government intention is that regardless if energy projects succeed or not, the energy sector shall have any money they say they need as long they continue to invest and build more capacity. That is how desperate the situation is.

ZeroGravitas 4y ago
This particluar tangent isn't about delivering energy. Most people seem to have accepted renewables have already won that price competition. But there's various grid services which aren't just about delivering energy. There's a weird assumption that steam generator tech is automatically better at these things than modern inverter-based technology, but I'm not aware of any case where that is actually true.
- belorn 4y ago
  > Most people seem to have accepted renewables have already won that price competition. The big question that the crisis seems to highlight is if price competition is relevant. What people want is energy on demand when people want it, and the supplier want to demand as much money as the market can take. What energy cost to produce doesn't influence either of those two unless there is an overcapacity with multiple producers competing for the chance of selling. When customers pay 10-100 times the production cost, and are happy to do so over the alternative of not having heating or open factories, then the issue that energy politics is trying to solve is not about finding the optimal technology that in theory is cheapest or best. Any technology that can solve either short term or long term is desired technology as long they actually get implemented.
- redeeman 4y ago
  > Most people seem to have accepted renewables have already won that price competition. is that why they still get outrageous subsidies to be any kind of desirable to build?
  - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
    Which specific subsidies and country are you talking about? Offshore wind (which is more expensive than onshore or solar PV) is now built subsidy free: https://www.offshorewind.biz/2022/08/02/subsidy-free-offshore-wind-power-starts-flowing-into-dutch-grid/ https://www.offshorewind.biz/2022/08/02/subsidy-free-offshor... UK offshore is currently paying a negative subsidy, a little bit earlier than this was predicted to happen: https://renews.biz/62009/uk-offshore-wind-to-cross-negative-subsidy-threshold-from-mid-2020s/ https://renews.biz/62009/uk-offshore-wind-to-cross-negative-...

by belorn 4y ago

ZeroGravitas 4y ago

This particluar tangent isn't about delivering energy. Most people seem to have accepted renewables have already won that price competition. But there's various grid services which aren't just about delivering energy. There's a weird assumption that steam generator tech is automatically better at these things than modern inverter-based technology, but I'm not aware of any case where that is actually true.

belorn 4y ago
> Most people seem to have accepted renewables have already won that price competition. The big question that the crisis seems to highlight is if price competition is relevant. What people want is energy on demand when people want it, and the supplier want to demand as much money as the market can take. What energy cost to produce doesn't influence either of those two unless there is an overcapacity with multiple producers competing for the chance of selling. When customers pay 10-100 times the production cost, and are happy to do so over the alternative of not having heating or open factories, then the issue that energy politics is trying to solve is not about finding the optimal technology that in theory is cheapest or best. Any technology that can solve either short term or long term is desired technology as long they actually get implemented.
redeeman 4y ago
> Most people seem to have accepted renewables have already won that price competition. is that why they still get outrageous subsidies to be any kind of desirable to build?
- ZeroGravitas 4y ago
  Which specific subsidies and country are you talking about? Offshore wind (which is more expensive than onshore or solar PV) is now built subsidy free: https://www.offshorewind.biz/2022/08/02/subsidy-free-offshore-wind-power-starts-flowing-into-dutch-grid/ https://www.offshorewind.biz/2022/08/02/subsidy-free-offshor... UK offshore is currently paying a negative subsidy, a little bit earlier than this was predicted to happen: https://renews.biz/62009/uk-offshore-wind-to-cross-negative-subsidy-threshold-from-mid-2020s/ https://renews.biz/62009/uk-offshore-wind-to-cross-negative-...