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> They don't actually care about user privacy, but rather want exclusive rights to all of your data so that they can sell it for a markup. Anyone who seriously

> They don't actually care about user privacy, but rather want exclusive rights to all of your data so that they can sell it for a markup. Anyone who seriously thinks Apple are going to turn into another Google or Facebook needs to give their head a wobble. Look at, for example, their recent pro-privacy improvements to the App Store where developers are now forced to state in black and white what data their Apps collect. Look at, for example, how pissed off Facebook were with recent privacy improvements in iOS. If Zuck is pissed off about a privacy improvement, then it must be a good thing ! If Apple didn't give a shit about user privacy and wanted to sell all your data, they would have done so a long time ago. Fact is that Apple has many moats. One of their biggest moats is their stance on the privacy of their user's data. They know that if they backtrack on that, many people (including myself) would vote with their feet.

kipchak 4y ago
Where would people move to? I think there's a fair bit of room for Apple to get worse on privacy while still being preferable to Android/Windows. "At least they don't sell my data as much as ____".
Cipater 4y ago
I would never have this kind of confidence in a corporation.
- traceroute66 4y ago
  > I would never have this kind of confidence in a corporation. Meanwhile back on Planet Earth ..... Going by your argument you should not own any electronic device. Because you should not be trusting Intel/AMD to make your CPU because they might have put spyware in it .... Because you should not trust your keyboard manufacturer because they might have embedded a keylogger in it.... Because you should not trust your choice of OS because you haven't personally reviewed 100% of the source code and all subsequent patches for spyware ... In the end, its about balancing risk vs reward. And frankly, especially in terms of privacy, Apple are far more trustworthy than the vast majority of other options out there.
  - stinkytaco 4y ago
    I don't think "this is a problem for everyone" really precludes both informing people about the problem and hoping there is a solution to the problem. Just because Apple it "better", doesn't make it "good". I personally feel some sort of regulatory framework around data collection and sales is not too much to ask.
    - joshmanders 4y ago
      My question is why is it always in discussions about Apple that people come out of the woodworks "worried about their privacy stance changing" and how we need regulatory stuff in place in the event Apple STARTS to be like Google, but nobody is ever in the Android stuff talking about how absolutely terrible Google is on this front?
      - stinkytaco 4y ago
        Because everyone knows this about Google already. With Apple there seems to be some associated belief that it's better, when there's nothing really special about Apple. It's a publicly traded company and just because no one let the cow out of the barn yet, doesn't mean it couldn't in the future. Props to Apple for not doing a Google yet, but like someone said, I would never trust a corporation to put me above shareholder value.
        joshmanders 4y ago
        > I would never trust a corporation to put me above shareholder value. Normally I'd agree with you, but I think Steve Jobs has a long history of not giving a shit about what shareholders say because he was more concerned with delivering the perfect product to customers, so I'd like to think that Tim Cook has also carried this torch too. Yes they are a for-profit company, I still get that... But everyone has been shouting "Just wait, Apple will become just like Google once they realize how juicy that data is to their bottom line!!" for literally decades, yet... Nothing.
        4y ago
cageface 4y ago
What good is privacy if a single corporation has your health data, finance information, contact lists, shopping habits, address, friends and family, movies, music etc etc etc and then want so sell ad space targeted at you? It's hardly any different than what Google or Facebook do except it's even more encompassing.
justapassenger 4y ago
> If Apple didn't give a shit about user privacy and wanted to sell all your data, they would have done so a long time ago. They already do "sell", in a very similar way as Google and Facebook does - look at their app store ads for example. Only real difference between Google/FB and Apple is that they process data on device, not on their servers. Sure, it's a huge technical difference, but not that much in terms of business and end users. Google and Facebook don't sell your data directly, as it's bad business - you want to sell access to customers as a subscription to get big bucks. They have all the initiative to protect data they gather on their servers. Same as Apple has to do that on devices. There're details to it, but just moving where you process user data isn't that much of a difference to end users - you're still a corporation selling other people ability to show me ads for cribs, when you discover that I'm expecting a baby.
- nerdponx 4y ago
  To be clear, it's totally possible for Apple's closed ecosystem to be objectively better for consumer privacy and also a kind of "ad reach" silo for which access is sold at a premium. And honestly, I'll take it. I have always been OK looking at ads if it funds the tools I use and the media I consume. I have always been OK with some amount of demographic and history-based ad targeting. I have no moral objection to some company gatekeeping advertiser access to my eyeballs and selling that access at a premium, especially if I'm already going to see ads everywhere anyway unless I go off-grid. I have no moral objection to using my demographics and general interests to show me ads for hiking boots instead of kung fu lessons. I am not OK with companies storing, collecting, selling, etc. my data without my knowledge, consent, or legitimate ability to opt out. If the data doesn't leave my phone and all of the "targeting" happens on my own device, I can think of much worse compromise outcomes.
- AnonHP 4y ago
  > Google and Facebook don't sell your data directly, as it's bad business You may want to check on this belief more thoroughly, at least with Meta/Facebook as a start.
  - justapassenger 4y ago
matt-attack 4y ago
Look at how they constantly go out of their way to engineer a solution that results in better privacy. Like analyzing your photo library using AI for object and face recognition. Any normal company (read: Google) would just run all that AI in their datacenter. Apple goes the extra mile, to actually run all that analysis on-device, while it's charging. I assure you there's no other reason to go through that effort other than privacy.
thefz 4y ago
> Anyone who seriously thinks Apple are going to turn into another Google or Facebook needs to give their head a wobble. To me, anyone stretching over to apologize for Apple needs to give their head a wobble. They are just going for the profit, selling you the lie of privacy. They want to scan your photos, remember. They already gave the FBI the tools they need to unlock phones, and they are of course part of PRISM.

kipchak 4y ago

Where would people move to? I think there's a fair bit of room for Apple to get worse on privacy while still being preferable to Android/Windows. "At least they don't sell my data as much as ____".

Cipater 4y ago

I would never have this kind of confidence in a corporation.

traceroute66 4y ago
> I would never have this kind of confidence in a corporation. Meanwhile back on Planet Earth ..... Going by your argument you should not own any electronic device. Because you should not be trusting Intel/AMD to make your CPU because they might have put spyware in it .... Because you should not trust your keyboard manufacturer because they might have embedded a keylogger in it.... Because you should not trust your choice of OS because you haven't personally reviewed 100% of the source code and all subsequent patches for spyware ... In the end, its about balancing risk vs reward. And frankly, especially in terms of privacy, Apple are far more trustworthy than the vast majority of other options out there.
- stinkytaco 4y ago
  I don't think "this is a problem for everyone" really precludes both informing people about the problem and hoping there is a solution to the problem. Just because Apple it "better", doesn't make it "good". I personally feel some sort of regulatory framework around data collection and sales is not too much to ask.
  - joshmanders 4y ago
    My question is why is it always in discussions about Apple that people come out of the woodworks "worried about their privacy stance changing" and how we need regulatory stuff in place in the event Apple STARTS to be like Google, but nobody is ever in the Android stuff talking about how absolutely terrible Google is on this front?
    - stinkytaco 4y ago
      Because everyone knows this about Google already. With Apple there seems to be some associated belief that it's better, when there's nothing really special about Apple. It's a publicly traded company and just because no one let the cow out of the barn yet, doesn't mean it couldn't in the future. Props to Apple for not doing a Google yet, but like someone said, I would never trust a corporation to put me above shareholder value.
      - joshmanders 4y ago
        > I would never trust a corporation to put me above shareholder value. Normally I'd agree with you, but I think Steve Jobs has a long history of not giving a shit about what shareholders say because he was more concerned with delivering the perfect product to customers, so I'd like to think that Tim Cook has also carried this torch too. Yes they are a for-profit company, I still get that... But everyone has been shouting "Just wait, Apple will become just like Google once they realize how juicy that data is to their bottom line!!" for literally decades, yet... Nothing.
        4y ago

cageface 4y ago

What good is privacy if a single corporation has your health data, finance information, contact lists, shopping habits, address, friends and family, movies, music etc etc etc and then want so sell ad space targeted at you? It's hardly any different than what Google or Facebook do except it's even more encompassing.

justapassenger 4y ago

> If Apple didn't give a shit about user privacy and wanted to sell all your data, they would have done so a long time ago. They already do "sell", in a very similar way as Google and Facebook does - look at their app store ads for example. Only real difference between Google/FB and Apple is that they process data on device, not on their servers. Sure, it's a huge technical difference, but not that much in terms of business and end users. Google and Facebook don't sell your data directly, as it's bad business - you want to sell access to customers as a subscription to get big bucks. They have all the initiative to protect data they gather on their servers. Same as Apple has to do that on devices. There're details to it, but just moving where you process user data isn't that much of a difference to end users - you're still a corporation selling other people ability to show me ads for cribs, when you discover that I'm expecting a baby.

nerdponx 4y ago
To be clear, it's totally possible for Apple's closed ecosystem to be objectively better for consumer privacy and also a kind of "ad reach" silo for which access is sold at a premium. And honestly, I'll take it. I have always been OK looking at ads if it funds the tools I use and the media I consume. I have always been OK with some amount of demographic and history-based ad targeting. I have no moral objection to some company gatekeeping advertiser access to my eyeballs and selling that access at a premium, especially if I'm already going to see ads everywhere anyway unless I go off-grid. I have no moral objection to using my demographics and general interests to show me ads for hiking boots instead of kung fu lessons. I am not OK with companies storing, collecting, selling, etc. my data without my knowledge, consent, or legitimate ability to opt out. If the data doesn't leave my phone and all of the "targeting" happens on my own device, I can think of much worse compromise outcomes.
AnonHP 4y ago
> Google and Facebook don't sell your data directly, as it's bad business You may want to check on this belief more thoroughly, at least with Meta/Facebook as a start.
- justapassenger 4y ago

matt-attack 4y ago

Look at how they constantly go out of their way to engineer a solution that results in better privacy. Like analyzing your photo library using AI for object and face recognition. Any normal company (read: Google) would just run all that AI in their datacenter. Apple goes the extra mile, to actually run all that analysis on-device, while it's charging. I assure you there's no other reason to go through that effort other than privacy.

thefz 4y ago

> Anyone who seriously thinks Apple are going to turn into another Google or Facebook needs to give their head a wobble. To me, anyone stretching over to apologize for Apple needs to give their head a wobble. They are just going for the profit, selling you the lie of privacy. They want to scan your photos, remember. They already gave the FBI the tools they need to unlock phones, and they are of course part of PRISM.