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The moment that apple announced "privacy" as their focus I knew this was going to happen. They don't actually care about user privacy, but rather want exclusive

by alexb_ 4y ago

The moment that apple announced "privacy" as their focus I knew this was going to happen. They don't actually care about user privacy, but rather want exclusive rights to all of your data so that they can sell it for a markup. If you want to sell targeted ads to anyone using an Apple device, you'll have to let Apple do the targeting (and take their cut). Get customers locked into the apple ecosystem, "protect" them from non-apple marketers, and then sell access to the giant Apple userbase at a big cost. What's really worrying is that having Apple gatekeep advertisers gives them the power to dictate what platforms can get ads vs what platforms can't. Letting Apple decide what platforms/services get their potential ad revenue cut in half is not a good thing.

throwayyy479087 4y ago
I truly believe the privacy mission is personal to Tim Cook: it was a much smaller deal under Jobs, and Tim Cook was bullied for being gay in Mobile. It makes sense as a lens to view some of their other choices, too. I think that's absolutely beautiful and very human.
rvnx 4y ago
Isn't it the business model of Google that you are describing in some way instead ? "We don't sell or share your data so we can be the only ones who have access to it for advertising purposes"
- alexb_ 4y ago
  Correct, and Google makes gigantic fuckloads of money doing that. It's no wonder Apple wants to do it as well. Apple having direct hardware access and aggressively locking in their customers makes this an extra degree worse for the consumer/better for Apple. At least with Google, it's easier to stop using it.
  - joshmanders 4y ago
    Why would Apple see what Google is doing in ads and want to do that too... Google's marketcap is half of what Apple's is... If anything Apple should keep what they're doing up, because they're clearly doing better than Google.
nojito 4y ago
This is absolute nonsense. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPogdNafgic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPogdNafgic Apple has the led the conversation on privacy far before anyone else was. I remember them get vilified from sharing their stance 10 years ago.
- alexb_ 4y ago
  >Apple has the led the conversation on privacy far before anyone else was. So they can make more money by selling access to a userbase they withhold from all other advertisers. The notion that Apple cares about anything other than the money-printing ability of their phone users is clearly and obviously wrong.
  - pwinnski 4y ago
    They've faced down several angry groups of shareholders that demonstrate you are incorrect. Apple as a company has a few values that reduce potential profits, and refuse to violate them. They should probably have more such values, but they definitely "care" about some things other than printing money. I'm all on board the Cynicism Express, but you've gotten on the wrong track here. Apple can be a monster for many, many reasons while still operating based on principles of user privacy.
    - kennend3 4y ago
      This would disagree with you: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/06/technology/apple-ads.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/06/technology/apple-ads.html Why does Apple want to sell more ads? Because money. It’s incredibly profitable for Apple to sell ads when people search the iPhone App Store for fitness apps or read articles in the Apple News app.
      - pwinnski 4y ago
        I am not seeing where I suggested that Apple doesn't want to sell more ads, or that they don't care about money. Yes, it's profitable for Apple to sell ads. They tried once before and failed because they refused to violate personal privacy for ad targeting. It is possible to sell fitness ads when people search for fitness apps, or health ads on articles about health subjects, without violating personal privacy. People are concerned about whether Apple will compromise long-held values because Facebook and Google have worked to pretend there's no difference between selling context-aware ads and selling privacy-invading user-tracking ads. There is a difference, though.
rootusrootus 4y ago
> so that they can sell it for a markup If they start selling your data, they'll quickly eliminate the very market share that gives them such power. And why would they want to give up that data anyway? Better to use it themselves. A lot of people will accept the data collection as long as it doesn't go to third-party companies, we have ample evidence for that already.
- alexb_ 4y ago
  >If they start selling your data, they'll quickly eliminate the very market share that gives them such power. No they absolutely will not. 99% of Apple users do not care about privacy. And when Apple does this, those users will find excuses to why it's okay.
  - JKCalhoun 4y ago
    I share your cynicism in general but not your degree of cynicism. Apparently, when prompted by the new iOS, 96% have opted out of tracking, not 1% as your comment would suggest. https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/05/96-of-us-users-opt-out-of-app-tracking-in-ios-14-5-analytics-find/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/05/96-of-us-users-opt-o...
    - alexb_ 4y ago
      Of course! They do opt out of tracking by other companies. Doing so is free, easy, and Apple encourages you to do it. That does not mean it will translate to opting out of Apple tracking you via the hardware. When it comes to hardware, privacy is far down the list of most people's priorities.
    - ayewo 4y ago
      Interesting. From your link 4% opted out of tracking in iOS 14.5 in the US, while globally that number is higher at 12%.
    - justapassenger 4y ago
      Having a prompt that says "Do you want X to do this scary sounding thing? Or not, and have 0 impact on you?" is worst possible way to do any kind of informed choice.
traceroute66 4y ago
> They don't actually care about user privacy, but rather want exclusive rights to all of your data so that they can sell it for a markup. Anyone who seriously thinks Apple are going to turn into another Google or Facebook needs to give their head a wobble. Look at, for example, their recent pro-privacy improvements to the App Store where developers are now forced to state in black and white what data their Apps collect. Look at, for example, how pissed off Facebook were with recent privacy improvements in iOS. If Zuck is pissed off about a privacy improvement, then it must be a good thing ! If Apple didn't give a shit about user privacy and wanted to sell all your data, they would have done so a long time ago. Fact is that Apple has many moats. One of their biggest moats is their stance on the privacy of their user's data. They know that if they backtrack on that, many people (including myself) would vote with their feet.
- kipchak 4y ago
  Where would people move to? I think there's a fair bit of room for Apple to get worse on privacy while still being preferable to Android/Windows. "At least they don't sell my data as much as ____".
- Cipater 4y ago
  I would never have this kind of confidence in a corporation.
  - traceroute66 4y ago
    > I would never have this kind of confidence in a corporation. Meanwhile back on Planet Earth ..... Going by your argument you should not own any electronic device. Because you should not be trusting Intel/AMD to make your CPU because they might have put spyware in it .... Because you should not trust your keyboard manufacturer because they might have embedded a keylogger in it.... Because you should not trust your choice of OS because you haven't personally reviewed 100% of the source code and all subsequent patches for spyware ... In the end, its about balancing risk vs reward. And frankly, especially in terms of privacy, Apple are far more trustworthy than the vast majority of other options out there.
criddell 4y ago
> Letting Apple decide what platforms/services get their potential ad revenue cut in half is not a good thing. Shouldn't you really say "letting Apple users decide..."?
jdlshore 4y ago
> They don't actually care about user privacy, but rather want exclusive rights to all of your data so that they can sell it for a markup. I don’t believe this is what’s happening now. Do you have any evidence that it will happen in the future, or is this just anticipatory anxiety?
pwinnski 4y ago
> They don't actually care about user privacy, but rather want exclusive rights to all of your data so that they can sell it for a markup. This flies in the face of everything Apple has ever done. I'm more cynical than most, but I also pay attention, and I find it more plausible that a company run by a very private gay man actually holds privacy as a company principle. That fits the facts much better than the conspiracy view. Apple has already struck out once in the ad industry because they refused to violate user privacy to compete with Google and Facebook. This time around they've acted to bring Google and Facebook down onto a level playing field. Since Google acquired DoubleClick, it's like we've forgotten that it's possible to sell targeted ads based on target locations, rather than based on personalized demographic profiles of target users. Being able to target locations impersonally is what initially drew ad dollars to the internet, as the targeting could be more specific than general TV spots or roadside billboards. There's no evidence that Apple intends to use any personal information at all in their ad targeting, and plenty of evidence that they don't. If it is "gatekeeping," it's a gate that they seem unwilling to cross themselves.
GeekyBear 4y ago
> They don't actually care about user privacy, but rather want exclusive rights to all of your data so that they can sell it for a markup So Google was evil from the start, back when they were just selling ads based on your search terms and not yet spying on your entire life online and offline?
tomjen3 4y ago
>They don't actually care about user privacy, but rather want exclusive rights to all of your data so that they can sell it for a markup. Of course not, in the same way that a Bently manufacture doesn't care that I own the car everybody envy, but that doesn't mean he won't make a car the everybody envies, because he does care about selling me an expensive car.

by alexb_ 4y ago

throwayyy479087 4y ago

I truly believe the privacy mission is personal to Tim Cook: it was a much smaller deal under Jobs, and Tim Cook was bullied for being gay in Mobile. It makes sense as a lens to view some of their other choices, too. I think that's absolutely beautiful and very human.

rvnx 4y ago

Isn't it the business model of Google that you are describing in some way instead ? "We don't sell or share your data so we can be the only ones who have access to it for advertising purposes"

alexb_ 4y ago
Correct, and Google makes gigantic fuckloads of money doing that. It's no wonder Apple wants to do it as well. Apple having direct hardware access and aggressively locking in their customers makes this an extra degree worse for the consumer/better for Apple. At least with Google, it's easier to stop using it.
- joshmanders 4y ago
  Why would Apple see what Google is doing in ads and want to do that too... Google's marketcap is half of what Apple's is... If anything Apple should keep what they're doing up, because they're clearly doing better than Google.

nojito 4y ago

This is absolute nonsense. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPogdNafgic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPogdNafgic Apple has the led the conversation on privacy far before anyone else was. I remember them get vilified from sharing their stance 10 years ago.

alexb_ 4y ago
>Apple has the led the conversation on privacy far before anyone else was. So they can make more money by selling access to a userbase they withhold from all other advertisers. The notion that Apple cares about anything other than the money-printing ability of their phone users is clearly and obviously wrong.
- pwinnski 4y ago
  They've faced down several angry groups of shareholders that demonstrate you are incorrect. Apple as a company has a few values that reduce potential profits, and refuse to violate them. They should probably have more such values, but they definitely "care" about some things other than printing money. I'm all on board the Cynicism Express, but you've gotten on the wrong track here. Apple can be a monster for many, many reasons while still operating based on principles of user privacy.
  - kennend3 4y ago
    This would disagree with you: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/06/technology/apple-ads.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/06/technology/apple-ads.html Why does Apple want to sell more ads? Because money. It’s incredibly profitable for Apple to sell ads when people search the iPhone App Store for fitness apps or read articles in the Apple News app.
    - pwinnski 4y ago
      I am not seeing where I suggested that Apple doesn't want to sell more ads, or that they don't care about money. Yes, it's profitable for Apple to sell ads. They tried once before and failed because they refused to violate personal privacy for ad targeting. It is possible to sell fitness ads when people search for fitness apps, or health ads on articles about health subjects, without violating personal privacy. People are concerned about whether Apple will compromise long-held values because Facebook and Google have worked to pretend there's no difference between selling context-aware ads and selling privacy-invading user-tracking ads. There is a difference, though.

rootusrootus 4y ago

> so that they can sell it for a markup If they start selling your data, they'll quickly eliminate the very market share that gives them such power. And why would they want to give up that data anyway? Better to use it themselves. A lot of people will accept the data collection as long as it doesn't go to third-party companies, we have ample evidence for that already.

alexb_ 4y ago
>If they start selling your data, they'll quickly eliminate the very market share that gives them such power. No they absolutely will not. 99% of Apple users do not care about privacy. And when Apple does this, those users will find excuses to why it's okay.
- JKCalhoun 4y ago
  I share your cynicism in general but not your degree of cynicism. Apparently, when prompted by the new iOS, 96% have opted out of tracking, not 1% as your comment would suggest. https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/05/96-of-us-users-opt-out-of-app-tracking-in-ios-14-5-analytics-find/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/05/96-of-us-users-opt-o...
  - alexb_ 4y ago
    Of course! They do opt out of tracking by other companies. Doing so is free, easy, and Apple encourages you to do it. That does not mean it will translate to opting out of Apple tracking you via the hardware. When it comes to hardware, privacy is far down the list of most people's priorities.
  - ayewo 4y ago
    Interesting. From your link 4% opted out of tracking in iOS 14.5 in the US, while globally that number is higher at 12%.
  - justapassenger 4y ago
    Having a prompt that says "Do you want X to do this scary sounding thing? Or not, and have 0 impact on you?" is worst possible way to do any kind of informed choice.

traceroute66 4y ago

> They don't actually care about user privacy, but rather want exclusive rights to all of your data so that they can sell it for a markup. Anyone who seriously thinks Apple are going to turn into another Google or Facebook needs to give their head a wobble. Look at, for example, their recent pro-privacy improvements to the App Store where developers are now forced to state in black and white what data their Apps collect. Look at, for example, how pissed off Facebook were with recent privacy improvements in iOS. If Zuck is pissed off about a privacy improvement, then it must be a good thing ! If Apple didn't give a shit about user privacy and wanted to sell all your data, they would have done so a long time ago. Fact is that Apple has many moats. One of their biggest moats is their stance on the privacy of their user's data. They know that if they backtrack on that, many people (including myself) would vote with their feet.

kipchak 4y ago
Where would people move to? I think there's a fair bit of room for Apple to get worse on privacy while still being preferable to Android/Windows. "At least they don't sell my data as much as ____".
Cipater 4y ago
I would never have this kind of confidence in a corporation.
- traceroute66 4y ago
  > I would never have this kind of confidence in a corporation. Meanwhile back on Planet Earth ..... Going by your argument you should not own any electronic device. Because you should not be trusting Intel/AMD to make your CPU because they might have put spyware in it .... Because you should not trust your keyboard manufacturer because they might have embedded a keylogger in it.... Because you should not trust your choice of OS because you haven't personally reviewed 100% of the source code and all subsequent patches for spyware ... In the end, its about balancing risk vs reward. And frankly, especially in terms of privacy, Apple are far more trustworthy than the vast majority of other options out there.

criddell 4y ago

> Letting Apple decide what platforms/services get their potential ad revenue cut in half is not a good thing. Shouldn't you really say "letting Apple users decide..."?

jdlshore 4y ago

> They don't actually care about user privacy, but rather want exclusive rights to all of your data so that they can sell it for a markup. I don’t believe this is what’s happening now. Do you have any evidence that it will happen in the future, or is this just anticipatory anxiety?

pwinnski 4y ago

> They don't actually care about user privacy, but rather want exclusive rights to all of your data so that they can sell it for a markup. This flies in the face of everything Apple has ever done. I'm more cynical than most, but I also pay attention, and I find it more plausible that a company run by a very private gay man actually holds privacy as a company principle. That fits the facts much better than the conspiracy view. Apple has already struck out once in the ad industry because they refused to violate user privacy to compete with Google and Facebook. This time around they've acted to bring Google and Facebook down onto a level playing field. Since Google acquired DoubleClick, it's like we've forgotten that it's possible to sell targeted ads based on target locations, rather than based on personalized demographic profiles of target users. Being able to target locations impersonally is what initially drew ad dollars to the internet, as the targeting could be more specific than general TV spots or roadside billboards. There's no evidence that Apple intends to use any personal information at all in their ad targeting, and plenty of evidence that they don't. If it is "gatekeeping," it's a gate that they seem unwilling to cross themselves.

GeekyBear 4y ago

> They don't actually care about user privacy, but rather want exclusive rights to all of your data so that they can sell it for a markup So Google was evil from the start, back when they were just selling ads based on your search terms and not yet spying on your entire life online and offline?

tomjen3 4y ago

>They don't actually care about user privacy, but rather want exclusive rights to all of your data so that they can sell it for a markup. Of course not, in the same way that a Bently manufacture doesn't care that I own the car everybody envy, but that doesn't mean he won't make a car the everybody envies, because he does care about selling me an expensive car.