4 ms·

Exactly right, tire and brake dust are still awful with EVs, though contra the slight implication in the headline, it's no worse than the current situation with

Exactly right, tire and brake dust are still awful with EVs, though contra the slight implication in the headline, it's no worse than the current situation with ICE vehicles. And the brake dust aspect may slightly reduce due to regenerative braking.

capitainenemo 4y ago
"Electric vehicles are estimated to emit 5-19% less PM10 from non-exhaust sources per kilometre than internal combustion engine vehicles (ICEVs) across vehicle classes. However, EVs do not necessarily emit less PM2.5 than ICEVs. Although lightweight EVs emit an estimated 11-13% less PM2.5 than ICEV equivalents, heavier weight EVs emit an estimated 3-8% more PM2.5 than ICEVs" So. It depends. It's sometimes slightly better, sometimes slightly worse. But it doesn't really solve the issue.
- epistasis 4y ago
  True, but these are all less than 20%, a change which is likely indistinguishable for any sort of risk factors, and likely well within the measurement error for something difficult to measure like this. The true change we need to make is drastically reduce car use, to a tiny fraction of its current use. This is a hard social problem, however, particularly for the older generations who tend to wield power in most governments. Younger folks seem pretty excited to allow more biking and walking and rolling, though.
  - capitainenemo 4y ago
    Interestingly the first article flagged ebikes as particularly problematic, which are a pretty common way to extend bike range. Although, they must surely be better than cars just due to mass. Anyway. Cautiously in agreement with you, but it depends a lot on where you live. Western Europe, at least at present, is blessed with a fairly mild climate. Less so than North America which seems to alternate between harsh winters and hot and humid summers. And it's a bit much to ask everyone to move somewhere nice. We probably need to figure out how to make braking systems and wheels less polluting. Quoted this Douglas Adams once on New York when this came up... "In the summer it's too darn hot. It's one thing to be the sort of life form that thrives on heat and finds, as the Frastrans do, that the temperature range between 40,000 and 40,004 is very equable, but it's quite another to be the sort of animal that has to wrap itself up in lots of other animals at one point in your planet's orbit, and then find, half an orbit later, that your skin's bubbling." [edit] (aside, my theory is the Frastrans live on an aging neutron star like in "Dragon's Egg" ;) ) And really the situation gets worse a few states down. :) To say nothing of Texas or Arizona.
    - jfim 4y ago
      > Interestingly the first article flagged ebikes as particularly problematic, which are a pretty common way to extend bike range. Although, they must surely be better than cars just due to mass. Only tangentially related, but I'd assume that most of the emissions from ebikes would be related to brakes, as stopping from higher velocity would wear down brake pads faster. One interesting thing that hybrid and electric vehicles do is that they do regenerative braking, which ends up with less wear on brake pads (and emissions) from slowing down. Justin from Grin Technologies (an ebike part shop focusing on DIYers) has done a presentation on how that works on ebikes, and mentions that he's barely using brake pads now that he's using regenerative braking: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYCj4asp9pE&t=970s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYCj4asp9pE&t=970s
    - sdenton4 4y ago
      Looking at the OECD report (possibly the wrong one?) I couldn't find any mention of bicycles except as an alternative to cars to mitigate the problem... Given the faaaar lower mass even of heavy bicycles, I would want to see the actual evidence before worrying too much about the bike contribution to particulate pollution. (rider mass / vehicle mass is a lovely shorthand for vehicle efficiency, as it says a lot about how much acceleration you're 'wasting' on the vehicle. Braking, of course, produces a negative acceleration, so lower mass ratio ~> better efficiency. Aim for a ratio of < 1.0...) https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/4a4dc6ca-en/1/3/2/index.html?itemId=/content/publication/4a4dc6ca-en&_csp_=681d016aff567eeb4efd802d746cdcc4&itemIGO=oecd&itemContentType=book https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/4a4dc6ca-en/1/3/2/index....
  - cptcobalt 4y ago
    Willingness over your lifespan to reduce car use is not merely "because they're getting old", but rather directly correlated with a city's existing transit infrastructure. I've been able to spend a few weeks here and there in London or other transit-dense cities, and I just about never desire a car there, but I do in the states. Government leaders in the states can't imagine this reality or, if so, can't imagine it changing sufficiently in their lifetimes to invest the political capital in. The US will never change.
    - epistasis 4y ago
      Well many government officials (especially those in the planning departments) can imagine that future, as can many younger elected officials. And honestly, I take it back, there are nearly as many older folks punching for changes to city design to allow waking and bikes as young people. But in genera the older generations have the time and money needed for local political involvement in a way that younger generations do not, so we tend to get a future shaped by those who do not want change from the status quo (which is a radical departure from the eta of urban growth focused on cars).
  - robertlagrant 4y ago
    > Younger folks seem pretty excited to allow more biking and walking and rolling, though. The difference may not be age; it may be having kids and dealing with the practicalities of that.
    - epistasis 4y ago
      The opposition is coming from people past child rearing years. Other parents like me are one of the strongest contingencies for getting rid of car-dependency. Cars are one of the greatest threats to kids in terms of death, disability, and maiming. And building cities around cars makes having kids a huge huge hassle, you have to drive them everywhere and they have zero autonomy. Cars and kids are an absolute terrible combo. I'm not sure if you've seen the huge rise of cargo bikes that I have seen, but they are nearly all parents with kid seating on the back in my town. We are trying to make do with terrible infrastructure and city planning, but it wouldn't take much change to make it all very much better.
      - robertlagrant 4y ago
        Yep; we live where we do to maximise cycling. Here are the problems with that as a general rule: - it's desirable, so property prices in places that enable this are higher, if there is even a location that could fulfill this - expensive bikes aren't affordable by most people who also need a car - there's a large window where kids are too big for a cargo bike, and still too young to go off freely
        epistasis 4y ago
        I don't view any of these as a problem in the least. And sorry if it comes across as as a strong critique, I don't mean any of it personally, but have heard people say these same things but never from people that actually bicycle with their family. We do all sorts of things that increase property value, why is it suddenly only a problem when bikes are involved? And the problem is only because we do a little amount of transition and not a lot? This is a completely fabricated concern in my estimation, the type of thing that people come up with instead of simply saying "I don't like this and don't want it." Similarly, the concern about the cost of bikes is completely invalid, as bikes are always cheaper than a car, even brand new cargo e-bikes are only a few months of car expenses at most. And I haven't seen that window where kids can't bike on their own or ride with another parent, and I know families that bike with kids of all sizes and ages.
dilyevsky 4y ago
Slightly? I barely use the brakes ever. Whoever is out braking in their EV all the time should have their DL revoked
- epistasis 4y ago
  I would like to see the numbers on this to quantify it. Because the places where EVs still do use brake pads is when they come to full stops at lights and stop signs, which tend to be far closer to people.
  - bryanlarsen 4y ago
    Brakes aren't necessary to stop an EV nor to hold a car at a stop on an incline. The only time a Tesla needs to use brake pads are for emergency stops and for the parking brake.
    - vladvasiliu 4y ago
      That may be the case for a Tesla (never driven one) but the ride-share Smart EVs we have around Paris absolutely need brakes to come to a stand-still. They will decelerate fairly quickly to 20-25 kmph, but after that, the deceleration rate slows down, and it actually will never stop by itself. For some reason I can't understand, they tried to imitate ICE automatics that don't stand still if you don't have your foot on the brake pedal.
      - zelos 4y ago
        Pressing the brake pedal doesn’t mean the physical brakes are being used, though.
      - mikestew 4y ago
        For some reason I can't understand, they tried to imitate ICE automatics that don't stand still if you don't have your foot on the brake pedal. Even more annoying, as an owner of a Nissan Leaf that does this, is that the behavior is what I consider to be a bug in automatic transmissions. Manual transmissions don't do that, and there's no good reason for automatics to do that (and a hundred really good reasons for them not to). It's an artifact of the viscosity of the fluid it turns in, and it annoys me that my EV is bug-for-bug compatible with a device the car doesn't even have (a transmission).
josephcsible 4y ago
EVs hardly generate any brake dust due to regenerative braking. It's not just a "slight" reduction and certainly not "awful" with them.
- giraffe_lady 4y ago
  The source says 5-19% reduction which is solid but pretty far off from "hardly any" in my view.
  - josephcsible 4y ago
    Isn't that number for the total particle emissions, rather than just for emissions from the brakes?
    - giraffe_lady 4y ago
      No, "PM10 for non-exhaust sources per km" and then the following line has more info about about pm2.5. Please just go read the thing it's not our duty to quote it at you piece by piece to disprove your assumptions about how good EVs are especially when the article is right there and not even long or very technical. If you have trouble reading or understanding english then I apologize and of course please continue to get the information this way if that is best for you. I mean this seriously and not as an insult. I had a TBI once and had a hard time parsing information like this for a couple years after.
      - treis 4y ago
        You should be less snarky when you're wrong. Non-exhaust sources also include tires and roads.
      - reducesuffering 4y ago
        Go back and actually read your parent comment and then tell us who (still) really has the reading comprehension problem…
beachy 4y ago
> And the brake dust aspect may slightly reduce due to regenerative braking. This might be underselling it. I hardly use the brakes on our EV at all. In a journey yesterday of 180km, I only touched the brakes at the end, when pulling into a car park.
killjoywashere 4y ago
I would expect the brake dust component to go down significantly for full EVs with Tesla-grade regenerative braking. Source: Model S owner. I can go whole trips without touching the brakes. Based on what I've seen, I suspect the FSD would be even more likely to make full trips without using the disk brakes.

capitainenemo 4y ago

"Electric vehicles are estimated to emit 5-19% less PM10 from non-exhaust sources per kilometre than internal combustion engine vehicles (ICEVs) across vehicle classes. However, EVs do not necessarily emit less PM2.5 than ICEVs. Although lightweight EVs emit an estimated 11-13% less PM2.5 than ICEV equivalents, heavier weight EVs emit an estimated 3-8% more PM2.5 than ICEVs" So. It depends. It's sometimes slightly better, sometimes slightly worse. But it doesn't really solve the issue.

epistasis 4y ago
True, but these are all less than 20%, a change which is likely indistinguishable for any sort of risk factors, and likely well within the measurement error for something difficult to measure like this. The true change we need to make is drastically reduce car use, to a tiny fraction of its current use. This is a hard social problem, however, particularly for the older generations who tend to wield power in most governments. Younger folks seem pretty excited to allow more biking and walking and rolling, though.
- capitainenemo 4y ago
  Interestingly the first article flagged ebikes as particularly problematic, which are a pretty common way to extend bike range. Although, they must surely be better than cars just due to mass. Anyway. Cautiously in agreement with you, but it depends a lot on where you live. Western Europe, at least at present, is blessed with a fairly mild climate. Less so than North America which seems to alternate between harsh winters and hot and humid summers. And it's a bit much to ask everyone to move somewhere nice. We probably need to figure out how to make braking systems and wheels less polluting. Quoted this Douglas Adams once on New York when this came up... "In the summer it's too darn hot. It's one thing to be the sort of life form that thrives on heat and finds, as the Frastrans do, that the temperature range between 40,000 and 40,004 is very equable, but it's quite another to be the sort of animal that has to wrap itself up in lots of other animals at one point in your planet's orbit, and then find, half an orbit later, that your skin's bubbling." [edit] (aside, my theory is the Frastrans live on an aging neutron star like in "Dragon's Egg" ;) ) And really the situation gets worse a few states down. :) To say nothing of Texas or Arizona.
  - jfim 4y ago
    > Interestingly the first article flagged ebikes as particularly problematic, which are a pretty common way to extend bike range. Although, they must surely be better than cars just due to mass. Only tangentially related, but I'd assume that most of the emissions from ebikes would be related to brakes, as stopping from higher velocity would wear down brake pads faster. One interesting thing that hybrid and electric vehicles do is that they do regenerative braking, which ends up with less wear on brake pads (and emissions) from slowing down. Justin from Grin Technologies (an ebike part shop focusing on DIYers) has done a presentation on how that works on ebikes, and mentions that he's barely using brake pads now that he's using regenerative braking: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYCj4asp9pE&t=970s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYCj4asp9pE&t=970s
  - sdenton4 4y ago
    Looking at the OECD report (possibly the wrong one?) I couldn't find any mention of bicycles except as an alternative to cars to mitigate the problem... Given the faaaar lower mass even of heavy bicycles, I would want to see the actual evidence before worrying too much about the bike contribution to particulate pollution. (rider mass / vehicle mass is a lovely shorthand for vehicle efficiency, as it says a lot about how much acceleration you're 'wasting' on the vehicle. Braking, of course, produces a negative acceleration, so lower mass ratio ~> better efficiency. Aim for a ratio of < 1.0...) https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/4a4dc6ca-en/1/3/2/index.html?itemId=/content/publication/4a4dc6ca-en&_csp_=681d016aff567eeb4efd802d746cdcc4&itemIGO=oecd&itemContentType=book https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/4a4dc6ca-en/1/3/2/index....
- cptcobalt 4y ago
  Willingness over your lifespan to reduce car use is not merely "because they're getting old", but rather directly correlated with a city's existing transit infrastructure. I've been able to spend a few weeks here and there in London or other transit-dense cities, and I just about never desire a car there, but I do in the states. Government leaders in the states can't imagine this reality or, if so, can't imagine it changing sufficiently in their lifetimes to invest the political capital in. The US will never change.
  - epistasis 4y ago
    Well many government officials (especially those in the planning departments) can imagine that future, as can many younger elected officials. And honestly, I take it back, there are nearly as many older folks punching for changes to city design to allow waking and bikes as young people. But in genera the older generations have the time and money needed for local political involvement in a way that younger generations do not, so we tend to get a future shaped by those who do not want change from the status quo (which is a radical departure from the eta of urban growth focused on cars).
- robertlagrant 4y ago
  > Younger folks seem pretty excited to allow more biking and walking and rolling, though. The difference may not be age; it may be having kids and dealing with the practicalities of that.
  - epistasis 4y ago
    The opposition is coming from people past child rearing years. Other parents like me are one of the strongest contingencies for getting rid of car-dependency. Cars are one of the greatest threats to kids in terms of death, disability, and maiming. And building cities around cars makes having kids a huge huge hassle, you have to drive them everywhere and they have zero autonomy. Cars and kids are an absolute terrible combo. I'm not sure if you've seen the huge rise of cargo bikes that I have seen, but they are nearly all parents with kid seating on the back in my town. We are trying to make do with terrible infrastructure and city planning, but it wouldn't take much change to make it all very much better.
    - robertlagrant 4y ago
      Yep; we live where we do to maximise cycling. Here are the problems with that as a general rule: - it's desirable, so property prices in places that enable this are higher, if there is even a location that could fulfill this - expensive bikes aren't affordable by most people who also need a car - there's a large window where kids are too big for a cargo bike, and still too young to go off freely
      - epistasis 4y ago
        I don't view any of these as a problem in the least. And sorry if it comes across as as a strong critique, I don't mean any of it personally, but have heard people say these same things but never from people that actually bicycle with their family. We do all sorts of things that increase property value, why is it suddenly only a problem when bikes are involved? And the problem is only because we do a little amount of transition and not a lot? This is a completely fabricated concern in my estimation, the type of thing that people come up with instead of simply saying "I don't like this and don't want it." Similarly, the concern about the cost of bikes is completely invalid, as bikes are always cheaper than a car, even brand new cargo e-bikes are only a few months of car expenses at most. And I haven't seen that window where kids can't bike on their own or ride with another parent, and I know families that bike with kids of all sizes and ages.

dilyevsky 4y ago

Slightly? I barely use the brakes ever. Whoever is out braking in their EV all the time should have their DL revoked

epistasis 4y ago
I would like to see the numbers on this to quantify it. Because the places where EVs still do use brake pads is when they come to full stops at lights and stop signs, which tend to be far closer to people.
- bryanlarsen 4y ago
  Brakes aren't necessary to stop an EV nor to hold a car at a stop on an incline. The only time a Tesla needs to use brake pads are for emergency stops and for the parking brake.
  - vladvasiliu 4y ago
    That may be the case for a Tesla (never driven one) but the ride-share Smart EVs we have around Paris absolutely need brakes to come to a stand-still. They will decelerate fairly quickly to 20-25 kmph, but after that, the deceleration rate slows down, and it actually will never stop by itself. For some reason I can't understand, they tried to imitate ICE automatics that don't stand still if you don't have your foot on the brake pedal.
    - zelos 4y ago
      Pressing the brake pedal doesn’t mean the physical brakes are being used, though.
    - mikestew 4y ago
      For some reason I can't understand, they tried to imitate ICE automatics that don't stand still if you don't have your foot on the brake pedal. Even more annoying, as an owner of a Nissan Leaf that does this, is that the behavior is what I consider to be a bug in automatic transmissions. Manual transmissions don't do that, and there's no good reason for automatics to do that (and a hundred really good reasons for them not to). It's an artifact of the viscosity of the fluid it turns in, and it annoys me that my EV is bug-for-bug compatible with a device the car doesn't even have (a transmission).

josephcsible 4y ago

EVs hardly generate any brake dust due to regenerative braking. It's not just a "slight" reduction and certainly not "awful" with them.

giraffe_lady 4y ago
The source says 5-19% reduction which is solid but pretty far off from "hardly any" in my view.
- josephcsible 4y ago
  Isn't that number for the total particle emissions, rather than just for emissions from the brakes?
  - giraffe_lady 4y ago
    No, "PM10 for non-exhaust sources per km" and then the following line has more info about about pm2.5. Please just go read the thing it's not our duty to quote it at you piece by piece to disprove your assumptions about how good EVs are especially when the article is right there and not even long or very technical. If you have trouble reading or understanding english then I apologize and of course please continue to get the information this way if that is best for you. I mean this seriously and not as an insult. I had a TBI once and had a hard time parsing information like this for a couple years after.
    - treis 4y ago
      You should be less snarky when you're wrong. Non-exhaust sources also include tires and roads.
    - reducesuffering 4y ago
      Go back and actually read your parent comment and then tell us who (still) really has the reading comprehension problem…

beachy 4y ago

> And the brake dust aspect may slightly reduce due to regenerative braking. This might be underselling it. I hardly use the brakes on our EV at all. In a journey yesterday of 180km, I only touched the brakes at the end, when pulling into a car park.

killjoywashere 4y ago

I would expect the brake dust component to go down significantly for full EVs with Tesla-grade regenerative braking. Source: Model S owner. I can go whole trips without touching the brakes. Based on what I've seen, I suspect the FSD would be even more likely to make full trips without using the disk brakes.