3 ms·

Then produce distinct legislation that bans the specific practices used, otherwise it's just giving preference to currently entrenched forms of money laundering

by realce 4y ago

Then produce distinct legislation that bans the specific practices used, otherwise it's just giving preference to currently entrenched forms of money laundering. It's not illegal whatsoever to mix up my dollar bills with a group of other people and get the same amount out that I put in. Such a statement is ridiculous.

striking 4y ago
Folks like to hate on lobbyists (including myself! very much so) but this is exactly the function they serve. They inform the legislators on what legislation would help their industries succeed, and encourage it across the line. I don't think the crypto industry is lacking in funding enough to be able to hire lobbyists, so I'm not sure why we might blame a legislature that can't be experts in literally everything (setting aside the fact that they tend to be fuddy-duddies for other reasons, it's not even theoretically practical that they could be perfectly informed on everything) for not having made perfect laws around a new industry.
polygamous_bat 4y ago
If you ran an establishment where people would come in with big bags of cash with dubious source, swirl them around in a big vat, and someone else would come in with a chit to take out some cash from your vat, I am sure your establishment will get investigated and shut down. In this way it's no different from the real world. Just because it's online doesn't make it ok.
- realce 4y ago
  Can you show me any statement in US law where such a practice is illegal? What you're describing sounds exactly like a casino.
  - polygamous_bat 4y ago
    U.S. Code § 1955 - Prohibition of illegal gambling businesses [1] stops you from starting a gambling parlor or casino on your basement without a government license. [1] https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1955 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1955
    - realce 4y ago
      Oh so these folks were impacted by casino laws? That's what the Treasury said?
  - ouid 4y ago
    it does doesnt it. Casinos certainly were money laundering establishments for the mob since their inception. The mobsters became politicians and stupid people argued that casinos provide public benefit on their behalf. The government decided that the only way to launder money through a casino was if the casino itself was in on it, and opted for heavy regulation on who can run casinos and how. People have still gotten away with money laundering through casinos but the regulations are onerous enough, and casinos profitable enough on their own, that the risk of getting completely shut down isnt worth it. Furthermore, actions are not usually the things that are illegal. Usually the law prohibits actions which cause a specific effect. Like murder or pollution. You dont get one free murder every time you figure out a new way to kill people.
  - thefreeman 4y ago
    Do you think you can just anonymously cash out a million dollars in casino chips with no identification or KYC happening?
    - realce 4y ago
      Do you think the statements "sounds like" and "is exactly" are the same thing? Almost like your point is that there's distinct legislation targeting a distinct pathway of money laundering, just like my original point was?
  - salawat 4y ago
    https://bsaaml.ffiec.gov/references/regulations https://bsaaml.ffiec.gov/references/regulations Here ya go. By the by, all of this is to be known or planned out before becoming a money transmitter. I.e., if you cannot do this, you are not legally allowed to serve as a money transmitter.
    - realce 4y ago
      But - here ya go - crypto is not money, it's real property. Tornado cash is not a bank, it allows you to swap random Pokemon cards between its' users.
      - polygamous_bat 4y ago
        Great news, helping people get rid of their stolen goods, aka "fencing" is also illegal. [1] https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-manual-1343-criminal-redistribution-stolen-property-fencing https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-manual...
        realce 4y ago
        I'm sure that's why eBay, Craigslist, and every other marketplace are blocked by the US Treasury? "Great news" pfft come on.
        notch656a 4y ago
        Prosecute the road crews building the interstate. They know building the road helps people sell and transport stolen goods, yet the road crew does nothing to stop them.
      - salawat 4y ago
        https://www.fincen.gov/sites/default/files/2019-05/FinCEN%20Guidance%20CVC%20FINAL%20508.pdf https://www.fincen.gov/sites/default/files/2019-05/FinCEN%20... Here ya go. If you use Pokemon cards in such a way as there is a reasonable expectation they may get converted back to dollary-dos, you are required to track that too. Sorry mate. Nice try. But no. Thank you, come again. I get it. It's frustrating. If only the means of exchange wasn't such a pivotal part of criminal enterprise, or people would just not do illegal things, we could have nice things. Alas, tis not the case.
erk__ 4y ago
That depends entirely on what the intent is. If the intent is to launder money then yes it is probably illegal. If the intent is to swap notes with your favourite serial numbers then yes it is probably legal. Intent is a important part of most legislations.
salawat 4y ago
Correct assuming you maintain documentation that keeps the evidence chain intact and produceable on request. If you don't, you're laundering. It's like a bunch of tech people waltzed into finance, ignored the entire history of the institution, and lessons paid for in blood, and expect everyone else to bend over backwards for them.

by realce 4y ago

striking 4y ago

Folks like to hate on lobbyists (including myself! very much so) but this is exactly the function they serve. They inform the legislators on what legislation would help their industries succeed, and encourage it across the line. I don't think the crypto industry is lacking in funding enough to be able to hire lobbyists, so I'm not sure why we might blame a legislature that can't be experts in literally everything (setting aside the fact that they tend to be fuddy-duddies for other reasons, it's not even theoretically practical that they could be perfectly informed on everything) for not having made perfect laws around a new industry.

polygamous_bat 4y ago

If you ran an establishment where people would come in with big bags of cash with dubious source, swirl them around in a big vat, and someone else would come in with a chit to take out some cash from your vat, I am sure your establishment will get investigated and shut down. In this way it's no different from the real world. Just because it's online doesn't make it ok.

realce 4y ago
Can you show me any statement in US law where such a practice is illegal? What you're describing sounds exactly like a casino.
- polygamous_bat 4y ago
  U.S. Code § 1955 - Prohibition of illegal gambling businesses [1] stops you from starting a gambling parlor or casino on your basement without a government license. [1] https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1955 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1955
  - realce 4y ago
    Oh so these folks were impacted by casino laws? That's what the Treasury said?
- ouid 4y ago
  it does doesnt it. Casinos certainly were money laundering establishments for the mob since their inception. The mobsters became politicians and stupid people argued that casinos provide public benefit on their behalf. The government decided that the only way to launder money through a casino was if the casino itself was in on it, and opted for heavy regulation on who can run casinos and how. People have still gotten away with money laundering through casinos but the regulations are onerous enough, and casinos profitable enough on their own, that the risk of getting completely shut down isnt worth it. Furthermore, actions are not usually the things that are illegal. Usually the law prohibits actions which cause a specific effect. Like murder or pollution. You dont get one free murder every time you figure out a new way to kill people.
- thefreeman 4y ago
  Do you think you can just anonymously cash out a million dollars in casino chips with no identification or KYC happening?
  - realce 4y ago
    Do you think the statements "sounds like" and "is exactly" are the same thing? Almost like your point is that there's distinct legislation targeting a distinct pathway of money laundering, just like my original point was?
- salawat 4y ago
  https://bsaaml.ffiec.gov/references/regulations https://bsaaml.ffiec.gov/references/regulations Here ya go. By the by, all of this is to be known or planned out before becoming a money transmitter. I.e., if you cannot do this, you are not legally allowed to serve as a money transmitter.
  - realce 4y ago
    But - here ya go - crypto is not money, it's real property. Tornado cash is not a bank, it allows you to swap random Pokemon cards between its' users.
    - polygamous_bat 4y ago
      Great news, helping people get rid of their stolen goods, aka "fencing" is also illegal. [1] https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-manual-1343-criminal-redistribution-stolen-property-fencing https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-manual...
      - realce 4y ago
        I'm sure that's why eBay, Craigslist, and every other marketplace are blocked by the US Treasury? "Great news" pfft come on.
      - notch656a 4y ago
        Prosecute the road crews building the interstate. They know building the road helps people sell and transport stolen goods, yet the road crew does nothing to stop them.
    - salawat 4y ago
      https://www.fincen.gov/sites/default/files/2019-05/FinCEN%20Guidance%20CVC%20FINAL%20508.pdf https://www.fincen.gov/sites/default/files/2019-05/FinCEN%20... Here ya go. If you use Pokemon cards in such a way as there is a reasonable expectation they may get converted back to dollary-dos, you are required to track that too. Sorry mate. Nice try. But no. Thank you, come again. I get it. It's frustrating. If only the means of exchange wasn't such a pivotal part of criminal enterprise, or people would just not do illegal things, we could have nice things. Alas, tis not the case.

erk__ 4y ago

That depends entirely on what the intent is. If the intent is to launder money then yes it is probably illegal. If the intent is to swap notes with your favourite serial numbers then yes it is probably legal. Intent is a important part of most legislations.

salawat 4y ago

Correct assuming you maintain documentation that keeps the evidence chain intact and produceable on request. If you don't, you're laundering. It's like a bunch of tech people waltzed into finance, ignored the entire history of the institution, and lessons paid for in blood, and expect everyone else to bend over backwards for them.