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It's a service specifically designed to facilitate money laundering. It's a bit like running a business that produces paperwork to make stolen cars indistinguis

by JustLurking2022 4y ago

It's a service specifically designed to facilitate money laundering. It's a bit like running a business that produces paperwork to make stolen cars indistinguishable from legal ones - there's no reason such a service should be allowed to exist.

junofan 4y ago
Can’t law enforcement use search warrants in their own jurisdiction?
devoutsalsa 4y ago
So are casinos, banks, money exchanges, and hot dog stands. There are tons of reasons for wanting privacy that have nothing to do with money laundering. Avoiding kidnapping & ransom because someone can’t see the size of your crypto wallet for example.
- zeusk 4y ago
  You're really saying; banks, money exchanges and hot dog stands have no other utility other than to "wash" money?
  - bitxbitxbitcoin 4y ago
    It’s reductionist but yes - “washing” money is a core part of their function. Note OP didn’t say laundering.
    - woodruffw 4y ago
      No, it isn't. Banks exist to induce stability and liquidity (i.e., the efficient flow of capital) within the economy. Hot dog stands exist to sell hot dogs. Money exchanges exist to transfer currencies to (you guessed it) facilitate commerce in different regions. The hair you're attempting to split between "laundering" and "washing" does not exist in the financial world, and would not impress financial regulators.
      - bitxbitxbitcoin 4y ago
        The difference between laundering and washing doesn’t exist in current financial regulation. It does to those who believe in financial privacy.
        zeusk 4y ago
        Enlighten us with how washing differs from laundering then; because I haven't had the crypto koolaid yet.
        pigtailgirl 4y ago
        -- as it was explained to me (I don't crypto) - because everything is public - you might want to disassociate (wash) transactions from yourself for perfectly legitimate reasons - not really needed in traditional finance as people typically don't have access to your bank account - however - this is not necessarily the same as wanting to take money you gained illegitimately and make it legitimate (launder) --
        woodruffw 4y ago
        This is the hair splitting I mentioned: no government in the world cares that you're doing money laundering because you're opted into a public-by-default money transfer system. The answer is to simply not use an immutable public ledger for your finances, since you're not required to. The government will not carve out a subset of crimes because of an unnecessary self-imposed restriction on financial privacy.
        pigtailgirl 4y ago
        -- by the same token - it's a bit uncouth to support and provide frameworks of legitimacy for "future focused technology projects" - however not enable services that account for edge cases in said new systems - I generally agree with you - but playing the devils advocate a bit - the crypto folks should probably be able to wash their "cash" if the reporting parameters are implemented correctly - no? --
- woodruffw 4y ago
  None of these things has an efficient end in laundering money. That's in contrast to Tornado Cash, which was designed to launder money. In other words: you can use a hot dog stand to launder money. But if you were to intentionally establish a hot dog stand for the purpose of laundering money, the government would be absolutely correct in seizing your stand.
  - capableweb 4y ago
    You're almost getting it. We still allow hot dog stands to exists, even though you could launder money via them. Instead, we let police investigate cases where money laundering is happening, and if it happens to be via one hot dog stand, take down that specific one. Rather than banning hot dog stands in general. Same goes for Tornado Cash. It was not designed for money laundering, although you could use it for that. If the US government finds cases of money laundering happening, take down the entities doing the money laundering instead of attacking a tool. If you think Tornado Cash was designed for money laundering, please point us to the documents where this is mentioned. I've personally followed the development of the project, but never saw any mentions of money laundering at all, anywhere.
    - danaris 4y ago
      ...Because money laundering is illegal. No one's going to advertise openly to the public "Assassination services here! Just call 1-800-KIL-THEM!" And no one's going to put in public documents "we set up this company in order to facilitate money laundering."
      - capableweb 4y ago
        Alright, so there is no proof that Tornado Cash was setup to facilitate money laundering, yet so many here on HN keeps saying "was designed to launder money". What does "designed to X" mean if not that the tool itself was intentionally, purposefully and explicitly made to do X? And if that's true, why isn't there any public evidence of that being true?
- res0nat0r 4y ago
  The primary reason casinos, banks, money exchanges and hot dog stands exist aren't to facilitate money laundering, unlike Tornado, according to the government.
angrycontrarian 4y ago
People should have a right to privacy. That includes financial privacy.
realce 4y ago
Then produce distinct legislation that bans the specific practices used, otherwise it's just giving preference to currently entrenched forms of money laundering. It's not illegal whatsoever to mix up my dollar bills with a group of other people and get the same amount out that I put in. Such a statement is ridiculous.
- striking 4y ago
  Folks like to hate on lobbyists (including myself! very much so) but this is exactly the function they serve. They inform the legislators on what legislation would help their industries succeed, and encourage it across the line. I don't think the crypto industry is lacking in funding enough to be able to hire lobbyists, so I'm not sure why we might blame a legislature that can't be experts in literally everything (setting aside the fact that they tend to be fuddy-duddies for other reasons, it's not even theoretically practical that they could be perfectly informed on everything) for not having made perfect laws around a new industry.
- polygamous_bat 4y ago
  If you ran an establishment where people would come in with big bags of cash with dubious source, swirl them around in a big vat, and someone else would come in with a chit to take out some cash from your vat, I am sure your establishment will get investigated and shut down. In this way it's no different from the real world. Just because it's online doesn't make it ok.
  - realce 4y ago
    Can you show me any statement in US law where such a practice is illegal? What you're describing sounds exactly like a casino.
    - polygamous_bat 4y ago
      U.S. Code § 1955 - Prohibition of illegal gambling businesses [1] stops you from starting a gambling parlor or casino on your basement without a government license. [1] https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1955 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1955
houstonn 4y ago
It's a service specifically designed for privacy. A human right.
- nh23423fefe 4y ago
  Oh its a human right. you've won the argument then
immigrantheart 4y ago
Properties in the USA, laundry, deli, dry cleaners, often use for money laundering.
- JustLurking2022 4y ago
  This is an argument largely championed by the richest of the rich as a way for them to commit financial crimes without getting caught - think old time Swiss bank privacy. When they finally got leveraged by the U.S. government to turn over records, people were cutting deals by the thousand to avoid doing time for tax fraud they knowingly committed.
redox99 4y ago
That's like saying knives are designed to facilitate murder. TC is made for privacy, which either is or should be a basic right. Without tools such as TC if I send you money, show you some POAPs[1] I own, or otherwise interact in any way with my crypto, it is fairly simple to deduce or make educated guesses of how much crypto I own, who I send it to or from, and more. This has serious implications not only for privacy, but for safety reasons too. TC makes it so you can transfer from your cold wallet to your hot wallet, without trivially revealing what your cold wallet is (and thus your funds). Furthermore TC also allows you to keep a receipt of these anonymous transfers, so you can in the future prove the origin of your funds or reveal such transactions. [1] https://poap.xyz/ https://poap.xyz/
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- lesuorac 4y ago
  > That's like saying knives are designed to facilitate murder. There are a lot of laws banning knives of various sizes and constructions. I'm not sure you picked the example you want.
- woodruffw 4y ago
  > That's like saying knives are designed to facilitate murder. There are plenty of knives that are designed to facilitate murder, and they are correspondingly regulated. We don't regulate kitchen knives in that way, because they don't represent the same intent. If your financial instrument leaks all of your transactions and makes you a target of criminal scrutiny, you should consider using a different instrument. Society is not going to throw the baby out with the bathwater to accomodate your public immutable ledger.
  - theplumber 4y ago
    >> There are plenty of knives that are designed to facilitate murder, and they are correspondingly regulated. We don't regulate kitchen knives in that way, because they don't represent the same intent. I'm pretty sure the majority of knives used for criminal activities are rather kitchen knifes. Compare Tornado Cash with cash money and tell me how they are different. Being untraceable does not make it a criminal instrument or does it? Is it criminal to conceal your financial transactions from the government?
zionic 4y ago
>It's a service specifically designed to facilitate money laundering. That’s like saying TLS was designed to protect CP. Privacy =/= laundering
miguelmota 4y ago
Why do you use a pseudonym on here instead of your real name? Oh right because you care about privacy. Same reason tornado cash exists. Playing the ML card is like saying Tim Berners-Lee invented the internet to facilitate digital crime.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

junofan 4y ago

Can’t law enforcement use search warrants in their own jurisdiction?

devoutsalsa 4y ago

So are casinos, banks, money exchanges, and hot dog stands. There are tons of reasons for wanting privacy that have nothing to do with money laundering. Avoiding kidnapping & ransom because someone can’t see the size of your crypto wallet for example.

zeusk 4y ago
You're really saying; banks, money exchanges and hot dog stands have no other utility other than to "wash" money?
- bitxbitxbitcoin 4y ago
  It’s reductionist but yes - “washing” money is a core part of their function. Note OP didn’t say laundering.
  - woodruffw 4y ago
    No, it isn't. Banks exist to induce stability and liquidity (i.e., the efficient flow of capital) within the economy. Hot dog stands exist to sell hot dogs. Money exchanges exist to transfer currencies to (you guessed it) facilitate commerce in different regions. The hair you're attempting to split between "laundering" and "washing" does not exist in the financial world, and would not impress financial regulators.
    - bitxbitxbitcoin 4y ago
      The difference between laundering and washing doesn’t exist in current financial regulation. It does to those who believe in financial privacy.
      - zeusk 4y ago
        Enlighten us with how washing differs from laundering then; because I haven't had the crypto koolaid yet.
        pigtailgirl 4y ago
        -- as it was explained to me (I don't crypto) - because everything is public - you might want to disassociate (wash) transactions from yourself for perfectly legitimate reasons - not really needed in traditional finance as people typically don't have access to your bank account - however - this is not necessarily the same as wanting to take money you gained illegitimately and make it legitimate (launder) --
        woodruffw 4y ago
        This is the hair splitting I mentioned: no government in the world cares that you're doing money laundering because you're opted into a public-by-default money transfer system. The answer is to simply not use an immutable public ledger for your finances, since you're not required to. The government will not carve out a subset of crimes because of an unnecessary self-imposed restriction on financial privacy.
        pigtailgirl 4y ago
        -- by the same token - it's a bit uncouth to support and provide frameworks of legitimacy for "future focused technology projects" - however not enable services that account for edge cases in said new systems - I generally agree with you - but playing the devils advocate a bit - the crypto folks should probably be able to wash their "cash" if the reporting parameters are implemented correctly - no? --
woodruffw 4y ago
None of these things has an efficient end in laundering money. That's in contrast to Tornado Cash, which was designed to launder money. In other words: you can use a hot dog stand to launder money. But if you were to intentionally establish a hot dog stand for the purpose of laundering money, the government would be absolutely correct in seizing your stand.
- capableweb 4y ago
  You're almost getting it. We still allow hot dog stands to exists, even though you could launder money via them. Instead, we let police investigate cases where money laundering is happening, and if it happens to be via one hot dog stand, take down that specific one. Rather than banning hot dog stands in general. Same goes for Tornado Cash. It was not designed for money laundering, although you could use it for that. If the US government finds cases of money laundering happening, take down the entities doing the money laundering instead of attacking a tool. If you think Tornado Cash was designed for money laundering, please point us to the documents where this is mentioned. I've personally followed the development of the project, but never saw any mentions of money laundering at all, anywhere.
  - danaris 4y ago
    ...Because money laundering is illegal. No one's going to advertise openly to the public "Assassination services here! Just call 1-800-KIL-THEM!" And no one's going to put in public documents "we set up this company in order to facilitate money laundering."
    - capableweb 4y ago
      Alright, so there is no proof that Tornado Cash was setup to facilitate money laundering, yet so many here on HN keeps saying "was designed to launder money". What does "designed to X" mean if not that the tool itself was intentionally, purposefully and explicitly made to do X? And if that's true, why isn't there any public evidence of that being true?
res0nat0r 4y ago
The primary reason casinos, banks, money exchanges and hot dog stands exist aren't to facilitate money laundering, unlike Tornado, according to the government.

angrycontrarian 4y ago

People should have a right to privacy. That includes financial privacy.

realce 4y ago

Then produce distinct legislation that bans the specific practices used, otherwise it's just giving preference to currently entrenched forms of money laundering. It's not illegal whatsoever to mix up my dollar bills with a group of other people and get the same amount out that I put in. Such a statement is ridiculous.

striking 4y ago
Folks like to hate on lobbyists (including myself! very much so) but this is exactly the function they serve. They inform the legislators on what legislation would help their industries succeed, and encourage it across the line. I don't think the crypto industry is lacking in funding enough to be able to hire lobbyists, so I'm not sure why we might blame a legislature that can't be experts in literally everything (setting aside the fact that they tend to be fuddy-duddies for other reasons, it's not even theoretically practical that they could be perfectly informed on everything) for not having made perfect laws around a new industry.
polygamous_bat 4y ago
If you ran an establishment where people would come in with big bags of cash with dubious source, swirl them around in a big vat, and someone else would come in with a chit to take out some cash from your vat, I am sure your establishment will get investigated and shut down. In this way it's no different from the real world. Just because it's online doesn't make it ok.
- realce 4y ago
  Can you show me any statement in US law where such a practice is illegal? What you're describing sounds exactly like a casino.
  - polygamous_bat 4y ago
    U.S. Code § 1955 - Prohibition of illegal gambling businesses [1] stops you from starting a gambling parlor or casino on your basement without a government license. [1] https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1955 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1955

houstonn 4y ago

It's a service specifically designed for privacy. A human right.

nh23423fefe 4y ago
Oh its a human right. you've won the argument then

immigrantheart 4y ago

Properties in the USA, laundry, deli, dry cleaners, often use for money laundering.

JustLurking2022 4y ago
This is an argument largely championed by the richest of the rich as a way for them to commit financial crimes without getting caught - think old time Swiss bank privacy. When they finally got leveraged by the U.S. government to turn over records, people were cutting deals by the thousand to avoid doing time for tax fraud they knowingly committed.

redox99 4y ago

That's like saying knives are designed to facilitate murder. TC is made for privacy, which either is or should be a basic right. Without tools such as TC if I send you money, show you some POAPs[1] I own, or otherwise interact in any way with my crypto, it is fairly simple to deduce or make educated guesses of how much crypto I own, who I send it to or from, and more. This has serious implications not only for privacy, but for safety reasons too. TC makes it so you can transfer from your cold wallet to your hot wallet, without trivially revealing what your cold wallet is (and thus your funds). Furthermore TC also allows you to keep a receipt of these anonymous transfers, so you can in the future prove the origin of your funds or reveal such transactions. [1] https://poap.xyz/ https://poap.xyz/

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
lesuorac 4y ago
> That's like saying knives are designed to facilitate murder. There are a lot of laws banning knives of various sizes and constructions. I'm not sure you picked the example you want.
woodruffw 4y ago
> That's like saying knives are designed to facilitate murder. There are plenty of knives that are designed to facilitate murder, and they are correspondingly regulated. We don't regulate kitchen knives in that way, because they don't represent the same intent. If your financial instrument leaks all of your transactions and makes you a target of criminal scrutiny, you should consider using a different instrument. Society is not going to throw the baby out with the bathwater to accomodate your public immutable ledger.
- theplumber 4y ago
  >> There are plenty of knives that are designed to facilitate murder, and they are correspondingly regulated. We don't regulate kitchen knives in that way, because they don't represent the same intent. I'm pretty sure the majority of knives used for criminal activities are rather kitchen knifes. Compare Tornado Cash with cash money and tell me how they are different. Being untraceable does not make it a criminal instrument or does it? Is it criminal to conceal your financial transactions from the government?

zionic 4y ago

>It's a service specifically designed to facilitate money laundering. That’s like saying TLS was designed to protect CP. Privacy =/= laundering

miguelmota 4y ago

Why do you use a pseudonym on here instead of your real name? Oh right because you care about privacy. Same reason tornado cash exists. Playing the ML card is like saying Tim Berners-Lee invented the internet to facilitate digital crime.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]