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And yet, somehow, we knew exactly who was doing it. Why the urgency to shut it down?

by mikece 4y ago

belval 4y ago
nh23423fefe 4y ago
You could just read what treasury wrote and argue with facts instead of vague rhetoric about lazy law enforcement > “Today, Treasury is sanctioning Tornado Cash, a virtual currency mixer that launders the proceeds of cybercrimes, including those committed against victims in the United States,” said Under Secretary of the Treasury for Terrorism and Financial Intelligence Brian E. Nelson. “Despite public assurances otherwise, Tornado Cash has repeatedly failed to impose effective controls designed to stop it from laundering funds for malicious cyber actors on a regular basis and without basic measures to address its risks. Treasury will continue to aggressively pursue actions against mixers that launder virtual currency for criminals and those who assist them.” https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/jy0916 https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/jy0916
- DennisP 4y ago
  There are two Tornado Cash entities: one is made of people, and the other is autonomous code running on chain. The OFAC action confuses those two, and it's not clear they have the authority to sanction code. For much more on this, see the legal analysis by Coincenter: https://www.coincenter.org/analysis-what-is-and-what-is-not-a-sanctionable-entity-in-the-tornado-cash-case/ https://www.coincenter.org/analysis-what-is-and-what-is-not-... Note that FinCEN does pay attention to this sort of distinction, and says that software providers are not subject to money laundering regulation.
wil421 4y ago
Why should North Korea be allowed to steal and hack from other country’s people and organizations? It should be shut down immediately. I feel like your trying to say NK and Tornado should be able to do illegal activities that harm people. Just because you don’t like the police or something.
- mikece 4y ago
  The very fact (or assumed fact) that we know North Korea is using this undercuts the argument that we need to shut this down because it allows for anonymous money laundering. (By definition: the only way money laundering can be "dangerous" is if it cannot be detected or the players identified.)
  - yunohn 4y ago
    No, in this, the authorities had the time/money to track down the hackers. The vast majority of tornado transactions are mostly illegal, but nobody cares enough to spend their efforts on them.
    - x86x87 4y ago
      What a world we are living in. Mostly illegal. Huh. Do you have any data to back this claim? Also, should banks be banned if their customers are doind shady things outside of using their services?
      - polygamous_bat 4y ago
        If it's a mafioso bank used mostly by the mafia, then yes, absolutely, they should be investigated and shut down. As for data, just as a first-order estimate, check out the rekt leaderboard [1] and see how many of the stories end with "and the stolen funds were routed through tornado, fin." If all crypto-adjacent crimes are reported to FBI at some point I am sure they have a much clearer statistics, but even as a civilian you can see that it's not small. [1] https://rekt.news/leaderboard/ https://rekt.news/leaderboard/
        x86x87 4y ago
        Yes. Anecdotal evidence. The best kind! Who decides who the mafia is?
        4y ago
giaour 4y ago
I don’t follow your logic. Isn’t the whole point of mixers that everyone can see dirty money go in, then the forensic trail stops?
amalcon 4y ago
Let's suppose you have Bob's Traditional Bank. They keep meticulous records, and comply with US government requests for them (regardless of what you think of such practices, let's just say that this particular bank happens to do those things). They also facilitate transactions on behalf of North Korea. Bob's Traditional Bank would be sanctioned here, because transacting with North Korea in that way is what triggers these sanctions. This is why Tornado is being sanctioned. The privacy thing may or may not be illegal, despite its ineffectiveness, but the transacting with North Korea thing definitely is.

And yet, somehow, we knew exactly who was doing it. Why the urgency to shut it down?

by mikece 4y ago

And yet, somehow, we knew exactly who was doing it. Why the urgency to shut it down?

belval 4y ago

nh23423fefe 4y ago

You could just read what treasury wrote and argue with facts instead of vague rhetoric about lazy law enforcement > “Today, Treasury is sanctioning Tornado Cash, a virtual currency mixer that launders the proceeds of cybercrimes, including those committed against victims in the United States,” said Under Secretary of the Treasury for Terrorism and Financial Intelligence Brian E. Nelson. “Despite public assurances otherwise, Tornado Cash has repeatedly failed to impose effective controls designed to stop it from laundering funds for malicious cyber actors on a regular basis and without basic measures to address its risks. Treasury will continue to aggressively pursue actions against mixers that launder virtual currency for criminals and those who assist them.” https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/jy0916 https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/jy0916

DennisP 4y ago
There are two Tornado Cash entities: one is made of people, and the other is autonomous code running on chain. The OFAC action confuses those two, and it's not clear they have the authority to sanction code. For much more on this, see the legal analysis by Coincenter: https://www.coincenter.org/analysis-what-is-and-what-is-not-a-sanctionable-entity-in-the-tornado-cash-case/ https://www.coincenter.org/analysis-what-is-and-what-is-not-... Note that FinCEN does pay attention to this sort of distinction, and says that software providers are not subject to money laundering regulation.

wil421 4y ago

Why should North Korea be allowed to steal and hack from other country’s people and organizations? It should be shut down immediately. I feel like your trying to say NK and Tornado should be able to do illegal activities that harm people. Just because you don’t like the police or something.

mikece 4y ago
The very fact (or assumed fact) that we know North Korea is using this undercuts the argument that we need to shut this down because it allows for anonymous money laundering. (By definition: the only way money laundering can be "dangerous" is if it cannot be detected or the players identified.)
- yunohn 4y ago
  No, in this, the authorities had the time/money to track down the hackers. The vast majority of tornado transactions are mostly illegal, but nobody cares enough to spend their efforts on them.
  - x86x87 4y ago
    What a world we are living in. Mostly illegal. Huh. Do you have any data to back this claim? Also, should banks be banned if their customers are doind shady things outside of using their services?
    - polygamous_bat 4y ago
      If it's a mafioso bank used mostly by the mafia, then yes, absolutely, they should be investigated and shut down. As for data, just as a first-order estimate, check out the rekt leaderboard [1] and see how many of the stories end with "and the stolen funds were routed through tornado, fin." If all crypto-adjacent crimes are reported to FBI at some point I am sure they have a much clearer statistics, but even as a civilian you can see that it's not small. [1] https://rekt.news/leaderboard/ https://rekt.news/leaderboard/
      - x86x87 4y ago
        Yes. Anecdotal evidence. The best kind! Who decides who the mafia is?
        4y ago

giaour 4y ago

I don’t follow your logic. Isn’t the whole point of mixers that everyone can see dirty money go in, then the forensic trail stops?

amalcon 4y ago

Let's suppose you have Bob's Traditional Bank. They keep meticulous records, and comply with US government requests for them (regardless of what you think of such practices, let's just say that this particular bank happens to do those things). They also facilitate transactions on behalf of North Korea. Bob's Traditional Bank would be sanctioned here, because transacting with North Korea in that way is what triggers these sanctions. This is why Tornado is being sanctioned. The privacy thing may or may not be illegal, despite its ineffectiveness, but the transacting with North Korea thing definitely is.