7 ms·

Before getting too excited about the experimental prevention they used, IL-1B blockade, let me say that blocking the innate immune system to prevent cancer seem

Before getting too excited about the experimental prevention they used, IL-1B blockade, let me say that blocking the innate immune system to prevent cancer seems ill-advised. The innate immune system is with us for very good reasons. This would be roughly equivalent to preventing table saw accidents by prophylactically removing all fingers. Yes, table saw accidents are terrible, but there is a straightforward electromechanical solution (SawStop), and fingers are useful for many other things. Yes, lung cancer is terrible, but there is a straightforward electromechanical solution (energy from renewables + nuclear), and the innate immune system is useful for many other things.

sdenton4 4y ago
Well I read the article and got excited about eliminating internal combustion engines...
- capitainenemo 4y ago
  https://www.brusselstimes.com/news/business/145130/fine-particular-pollution-from-electric-vehicle-brakes-and-tires-could-become-a-problem-oecd-warns https://www.brusselstimes.com/news/business/145130/fine-part... That won't necessarily solve this problem. [edit] One more source. There are tons though. https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/4a4dc6ca-en/index.html?itemId=/content/publication/4a4dc6ca-en https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/4a4dc6ca-en/index.html?i...
  - epistasis 4y ago
    Exactly right, tire and brake dust are still awful with EVs, though contra the slight implication in the headline, it's no worse than the current situation with ICE vehicles. And the brake dust aspect may slightly reduce due to regenerative braking.
    - capitainenemo 4y ago
      "Electric vehicles are estimated to emit 5-19% less PM10 from non-exhaust sources per kilometre than internal combustion engine vehicles (ICEVs) across vehicle classes. However, EVs do not necessarily emit less PM2.5 than ICEVs. Although lightweight EVs emit an estimated 11-13% less PM2.5 than ICEV equivalents, heavier weight EVs emit an estimated 3-8% more PM2.5 than ICEVs" So. It depends. It's sometimes slightly better, sometimes slightly worse. But it doesn't really solve the issue.
      - epistasis 4y ago
        True, but these are all less than 20%, a change which is likely indistinguishable for any sort of risk factors, and likely well within the measurement error for something difficult to measure like this. The true change we need to make is drastically reduce car use, to a tiny fraction of its current use. This is a hard social problem, however, particularly for the older generations who tend to wield power in most governments. Younger folks seem pretty excited to allow more biking and walking and rolling, though.
        capitainenemo 4y ago
        Interestingly the first article flagged ebikes as particularly problematic, which are a pretty common way to extend bike range. Although, they must surely be better than cars just due to mass. Anyway. Cautiously in agreement with you, but it depends a lot on where you live. Western Europe, at least at present, is blessed with a fairly mild climate. Less so than North America which seems to alternate between harsh winters and hot and humid summers. And it's a bit much to ask everyone to move somewhere nice. We probably need to figure out how to make braking systems and wheels less polluting. Quoted this Douglas Adams once on New York when this came up... "In the summer it's too darn hot. It's one thing to be the sort of life form that thrives on heat and finds, as the Frastrans do, that the temperature range between 40,000 and 40,004 is very equable, but it's quite another to be the sort of animal that has to wrap itself up in lots of other animals at one point in your planet's orbit, and then find, half an orbit later, that your skin's bubbling." [edit] (aside, my theory is the Frastrans live on an aging neutron star like in "Dragon's Egg" ;) ) And really the situation gets worse a few states down. :) To say nothing of Texas or Arizona.
    - dilyevsky 4y ago
      Slightly? I barely use the brakes ever. Whoever is out braking in their EV all the time should have their DL revoked
      - epistasis 4y ago
        I would like to see the numbers on this to quantify it. Because the places where EVs still do use brake pads is when they come to full stops at lights and stop signs, which tend to be far closer to people.
        bryanlarsen 4y ago
        Brakes aren't necessary to stop an EV nor to hold a car at a stop on an incline. The only time a Tesla needs to use brake pads are for emergency stops and for the parking brake.
        vladvasiliu 4y ago
        That may be the case for a Tesla (never driven one) but the ride-share Smart EVs we have around Paris absolutely need brakes to come to a stand-still. They will decelerate fairly quickly to 20-25 kmph, but after that, the deceleration rate slows down, and it actually will never stop by itself. For some reason I can't understand, they tried to imitate ICE automatics that don't stand still if you don't have your foot on the brake pedal.
        zelos 4y ago
        Pressing the brake pedal doesn’t mean the physical brakes are being used, though.
        mikestew 4y ago
        For some reason I can't understand, they tried to imitate ICE automatics that don't stand still if you don't have your foot on the brake pedal. Even more annoying, as an owner of a Nissan Leaf that does this, is that the behavior is what I consider to be a bug in automatic transmissions. Manual transmissions don't do that, and there's no good reason for automatics to do that (and a hundred really good reasons for them not to). It's an artifact of the viscosity of the fluid it turns in, and it annoys me that my EV is bug-for-bug compatible with a device the car doesn't even have (a transmission).
    - josephcsible 4y ago
      EVs hardly generate any brake dust due to regenerative braking. It's not just a "slight" reduction and certainly not "awful" with them.
      - giraffe_lady 4y ago
        The source says 5-19% reduction which is solid but pretty far off from "hardly any" in my view.
        josephcsible 4y ago
        Isn't that number for the total particle emissions, rather than just for emissions from the brakes?
        giraffe_lady 4y ago
        No, "PM10 for non-exhaust sources per km" and then the following line has more info about about pm2.5. Please just go read the thing it's not our duty to quote it at you piece by piece to disprove your assumptions about how good EVs are especially when the article is right there and not even long or very technical. If you have trouble reading or understanding english then I apologize and of course please continue to get the information this way if that is best for you. I mean this seriously and not as an insult. I had a TBI once and had a hard time parsing information like this for a couple years after.
        treis 4y ago
        You should be less snarky when you're wrong. Non-exhaust sources also include tires and roads.
        reducesuffering 4y ago
        Go back and actually read your parent comment and then tell us who (still) really has the reading comprehension problem…
    - beachy 4y ago
      > And the brake dust aspect may slightly reduce due to regenerative braking. This might be underselling it. I hardly use the brakes on our EV at all. In a journey yesterday of 180km, I only touched the brakes at the end, when pulling into a car park.
    - killjoywashere 4y ago
      I would expect the brake dust component to go down significantly for full EVs with Tesla-grade regenerative braking. Source: Model S owner. I can go whole trips without touching the brakes. Based on what I've seen, I suspect the FSD would be even more likely to make full trips without using the disk brakes.
  - Sayrus 4y ago
    The Brussels Times uses this exact report from the OECD iLibrary as a source.
  - CalRobert 4y ago
    All the more reason to design cities where cars are only needed occasionally and walking, cycling, and public transport serve most people's needs.
  - Tade0 4y ago
    I'm having trouble believing such findings because even in the most congested of cities PM counts are generally low as long as other sources (like heating) are kept in check. NOx emissions kick in as the main pollutant much earlier in such places.
marricks 4y ago
Yeah, it feels like society loves coming up with ways to “handle” problems but never actual solve them. The future will likely be upper middle class folks walking around in habitat bubbles with VR suits across a toxic desert of miasma.

sdenton4 4y ago

Well I read the article and got excited about eliminating internal combustion engines...

capitainenemo 4y ago
https://www.brusselstimes.com/news/business/145130/fine-particular-pollution-from-electric-vehicle-brakes-and-tires-could-become-a-problem-oecd-warns https://www.brusselstimes.com/news/business/145130/fine-part... That won't necessarily solve this problem. [edit] One more source. There are tons though. https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/4a4dc6ca-en/index.html?itemId=/content/publication/4a4dc6ca-en https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/4a4dc6ca-en/index.html?i...
- epistasis 4y ago
  Exactly right, tire and brake dust are still awful with EVs, though contra the slight implication in the headline, it's no worse than the current situation with ICE vehicles. And the brake dust aspect may slightly reduce due to regenerative braking.
  - capitainenemo 4y ago
    "Electric vehicles are estimated to emit 5-19% less PM10 from non-exhaust sources per kilometre than internal combustion engine vehicles (ICEVs) across vehicle classes. However, EVs do not necessarily emit less PM2.5 than ICEVs. Although lightweight EVs emit an estimated 11-13% less PM2.5 than ICEV equivalents, heavier weight EVs emit an estimated 3-8% more PM2.5 than ICEVs" So. It depends. It's sometimes slightly better, sometimes slightly worse. But it doesn't really solve the issue.
    - epistasis 4y ago
      True, but these are all less than 20%, a change which is likely indistinguishable for any sort of risk factors, and likely well within the measurement error for something difficult to measure like this. The true change we need to make is drastically reduce car use, to a tiny fraction of its current use. This is a hard social problem, however, particularly for the older generations who tend to wield power in most governments. Younger folks seem pretty excited to allow more biking and walking and rolling, though.
      - capitainenemo 4y ago
        Interestingly the first article flagged ebikes as particularly problematic, which are a pretty common way to extend bike range. Although, they must surely be better than cars just due to mass. Anyway. Cautiously in agreement with you, but it depends a lot on where you live. Western Europe, at least at present, is blessed with a fairly mild climate. Less so than North America which seems to alternate between harsh winters and hot and humid summers. And it's a bit much to ask everyone to move somewhere nice. We probably need to figure out how to make braking systems and wheels less polluting. Quoted this Douglas Adams once on New York when this came up... "In the summer it's too darn hot. It's one thing to be the sort of life form that thrives on heat and finds, as the Frastrans do, that the temperature range between 40,000 and 40,004 is very equable, but it's quite another to be the sort of animal that has to wrap itself up in lots of other animals at one point in your planet's orbit, and then find, half an orbit later, that your skin's bubbling." [edit] (aside, my theory is the Frastrans live on an aging neutron star like in "Dragon's Egg" ;) ) And really the situation gets worse a few states down. :) To say nothing of Texas or Arizona.
  - dilyevsky 4y ago
    Slightly? I barely use the brakes ever. Whoever is out braking in their EV all the time should have their DL revoked
    - epistasis 4y ago
      I would like to see the numbers on this to quantify it. Because the places where EVs still do use brake pads is when they come to full stops at lights and stop signs, which tend to be far closer to people.
      - bryanlarsen 4y ago
        Brakes aren't necessary to stop an EV nor to hold a car at a stop on an incline. The only time a Tesla needs to use brake pads are for emergency stops and for the parking brake.
        vladvasiliu 4y ago
        That may be the case for a Tesla (never driven one) but the ride-share Smart EVs we have around Paris absolutely need brakes to come to a stand-still. They will decelerate fairly quickly to 20-25 kmph, but after that, the deceleration rate slows down, and it actually will never stop by itself. For some reason I can't understand, they tried to imitate ICE automatics that don't stand still if you don't have your foot on the brake pedal.
        zelos 4y ago
        Pressing the brake pedal doesn’t mean the physical brakes are being used, though.
        mikestew 4y ago
        For some reason I can't understand, they tried to imitate ICE automatics that don't stand still if you don't have your foot on the brake pedal. Even more annoying, as an owner of a Nissan Leaf that does this, is that the behavior is what I consider to be a bug in automatic transmissions. Manual transmissions don't do that, and there's no good reason for automatics to do that (and a hundred really good reasons for them not to). It's an artifact of the viscosity of the fluid it turns in, and it annoys me that my EV is bug-for-bug compatible with a device the car doesn't even have (a transmission).
  - josephcsible 4y ago
    EVs hardly generate any brake dust due to regenerative braking. It's not just a "slight" reduction and certainly not "awful" with them.
    - giraffe_lady 4y ago
      The source says 5-19% reduction which is solid but pretty far off from "hardly any" in my view.
      - josephcsible 4y ago
        Isn't that number for the total particle emissions, rather than just for emissions from the brakes?
        giraffe_lady 4y ago
        No, "PM10 for non-exhaust sources per km" and then the following line has more info about about pm2.5. Please just go read the thing it's not our duty to quote it at you piece by piece to disprove your assumptions about how good EVs are especially when the article is right there and not even long or very technical. If you have trouble reading or understanding english then I apologize and of course please continue to get the information this way if that is best for you. I mean this seriously and not as an insult. I had a TBI once and had a hard time parsing information like this for a couple years after.
        treis 4y ago
        You should be less snarky when you're wrong. Non-exhaust sources also include tires and roads.
        reducesuffering 4y ago
        Go back and actually read your parent comment and then tell us who (still) really has the reading comprehension problem…
  - beachy 4y ago
    > And the brake dust aspect may slightly reduce due to regenerative braking. This might be underselling it. I hardly use the brakes on our EV at all. In a journey yesterday of 180km, I only touched the brakes at the end, when pulling into a car park.
  - killjoywashere 4y ago
    I would expect the brake dust component to go down significantly for full EVs with Tesla-grade regenerative braking. Source: Model S owner. I can go whole trips without touching the brakes. Based on what I've seen, I suspect the FSD would be even more likely to make full trips without using the disk brakes.
- Sayrus 4y ago
  The Brussels Times uses this exact report from the OECD iLibrary as a source.
- CalRobert 4y ago
  All the more reason to design cities where cars are only needed occasionally and walking, cycling, and public transport serve most people's needs.
- Tade0 4y ago
  I'm having trouble believing such findings because even in the most congested of cities PM counts are generally low as long as other sources (like heating) are kept in check. NOx emissions kick in as the main pollutant much earlier in such places.

marricks 4y ago

Yeah, it feels like society loves coming up with ways to “handle” problems but never actual solve them. The future will likely be upper middle class folks walking around in habitat bubbles with VR suits across a toxic desert of miasma.