4 ms·

> When prices spike, dispatchable sources (or dispatchable demand) move in and snipe the peaks, so nuclear can't make up for it then. That is not true. Nuclear

• Gwypaas 4y ago
  > That is not true. Nuclear power has been used as a dispatchable / regulative source of power to compensate solar and wind power intermittency for decades in France.[1] You take the most expensive energy source and run it at a lower capacity factor leading to even higher costs per delivered kWh. That is the issue. Say you run Hinkley Point C [1] at a capacity factor of 50% because renewables crowd it out of the market half the time and assume marginal costs of running the plant at ~€20/MWh. [2] €(120 - 20) * 2 + 20 = €220/MWh. That would be expensive even by Putin energy crisis standards, that is the issue with mixing nuclear and renewables. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinkley_Point_C_nuclear_power_station#Cost_to_consumers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinkley_Point_C_nuclear_power_... [2]: https://www.lazard.com/perspective/levelized-cost-of-energy-levelized-cost-of-storage-and-levelized-cost-of-hydrogen/ https://www.lazard.com/perspective/levelized-cost-of-energy-...
  • adev_ 4y ago
    > Say you run Hinkley Point C [1] at a capacity factor of 50% because renewable crowd it out Very bad projection because: - Hinkley Point C, Olkiluoto 3 and EPR Flamanville are all prototype. Their CAPEX cost are not representative of industrialized Nuclear. As example, the production cost as expressed by the French ARENH is around 42-1€/MWh [1] - Electricity price skyrocket when weather conditions make production of renewable impossible. This is where this kind of plant make a profit. [2] Your projection just fit a worst case scenario. - At the current electricity price due to the Russian conflict, Some EPRs including the French ones are predicted to be cost effective in only few years. [1]: https://www.enerdata.net/publications/daily-energy-news/frances-cre-proposes-raise-edf-power-sales-under-arenh-8-2023.html https://www.enerdata.net/publications/daily-energy-news/fran... [2] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-08-16/german-power-prices-hit-fresh-record-as-gas-continues-to-surge https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-08-16/german-po...
  • doikor 4y ago
    > €(120 - 20) * 2 + 20 = €220/MWh. No idea about Hinkley Point but TVOs 2 earlier reactors have costs in the 15 to 20€/MWh range with average market prices around 30 to 40€/MWh they are making healthy profits with the reactors (and have for decades now). Once OL3 is running their target combined operational costs of all the reactors are around 30€/MWh. It will be tight but they should be able to make it profitable especially as they don't have to sell all the production at day ahead spot prices but higher fixed rate contracts far into the future. Obviously nuclear also produces at the moments when wind does not and the price spikes. (https://www.tvo.fi/material/collections/20210713150018/7RllfhpQP/TVO_Credit_Investor_Presentation_June_2021.pdf https://www.tvo.fi/material/collections/20210713150018/7Rllf... scroll down to page 7) edit: And TVO does not actually sell anything on the open markets but instead at production costs to its owners based on the % of investment into each reactor. Those can then either sell it or use it themselves.
    • pfdietz 4y ago
      > No idea about Hinkley Point but TVOs 2 earlier reactors have costs in the 15 to 20€/MWh range That is simply the operating cost. Yes, nuclear can be quite competitive if your reactor is provided for free by the Nuclear Fairy.
• pfdietz 4y ago
  > Never storage of electricity has been deployed successfully at scale needed for a mid size country Remember folks -- according to nuclear defenders, nothing can ever happen for the first time. At least, when it comes to renewables, that is. Except for all the times new milestones are reached, I guess. There is no valid technical reason you can point to that would prevent a 100% renewable grid from operating. And the cost of all the components have been falling rapidly as demand pushes them down their experience curves. I might forgive you for ignoring that, as a good experience curve is sadly not something nuclear has had, in general. Also: https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?tp=&arnumber=9837910 https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?tp=&arnumber=983... > With every iteration in the research and with every technological breakthrough in these areas, 100% RE systems become increasingly viable. Even former critics must admit that adding e-fuels through PtX makes 100% RE possible at costs similar to fossil fuels. (since nuclear is not available at a cost similar to fossil fuels, this implies renewables would be less costly than nuclear)
  • ohgodplsno 4y ago
    Remember folks: building one of the most complicated projects humanity has ever had to do, with resource costs that would overshadow pretty much anything else in the world is super easy to do for the first time. At least, when it come to renewables, that is.
    • pfdietz 4y ago
      Ah yes. An energy system to supply the entire world has to be trivially easy or else it's impossible. A renewable energy system to power the world would be an enormous undertaking. It's just that it would be less expensive than a nuclear system to do the same.
      • ftth_finland 4y ago
        Alright then, let’s try something easier then. How much energy storage can we buy for 20 billion right now?