5 ms·

Olkiluoto 3 is sitting at three times the planned cost and has a delay of over a decade, so hopefully they'll be able to take it online for good this time, the

Olkiluoto 3 is sitting at three times the planned cost and has a delay of over a decade, so hopefully they'll be able to take it online for good this time, the last attempt to do so didn't go so well.

soco 4y ago
I though when you build an existing model the costs and planning estimations would get a bit closer to reality...
- hocuspocus 4y ago
  Taishan proved you can build EPRs near cost and time estimates. EDF has promised a simplified design for the EPR2 (after learning from 20 years of mistakes) but it's probably not going to fix the sad state of our nuclear industry in Europe, suffering from a lot of internal and external inefficiencies.
  - distances 4y ago
    I have no proof, but I have a strong feeling that the Chinese nuclear safety authority isn't nowhere near as picky as the Finnish counterpart. Lots of the delays were caused by orders to rebuild after failed quality checks from the authorities.
    - hocuspocus 4y ago
      Certainly, but this is mostly a self-inflicted problem in the EU. Everything that is procured through a public tender gets done by the lowest bidder.
      - Gwypaas 4y ago
        Olkiluoto 3 is built by a private company to provide power for a consortium of industry companies, no lowest bidder in sight. Still the same issue though, wonder if it's nuclear that is hard or public procurement? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teollisuuden_Voima https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teollisuuden_Voima
        hocuspocus 4y ago
        From what I read about the EPR fiasco in France, Finland and the UK, there are always many contractors and subcontractors involved. Some delays were due to a real lack or loss of industrial knowledge and tooling (many components of the EPR are considerably larger than those of previous reactor designs) which can explain poor procurement choice, others are more easily explained by construction companies that were just not up to the task, when it's "just" faulty concrete or welding.
        doikor 4y ago
        > when it's "just" faulty concrete or welding. In Finland during construction the local nuclear safety company found reinforced concrete that had 0 rebar in it etc forcing a lot of stuff to be redone due to someone trying to cut expenses. Though those issues happened a long time ago. The recent delays are mostly issues with the automation systems and the turbine (both subcontracted to Siemens by Areva). But yeah a lot of the issues are the "nobody has ever done this before". The steam turbine used by these plants is literally the largest ever built.
ClumsyPilot 4y ago
Nuclear is always late and over budget in the West because everyone who knows how to build reactors is long dead or retired. Thats what get when you loose skilled workforce. We are incompetent at building all kinds of infrastructure - UK completed crossrail almost 10 years late,and HS2 is 3x overbudget. This country invented railways! California also can't build a railway apparently. I am not sure how a functional country continues on this trajectory
- samatman 4y ago
  The lack of industrial capacity is almost purely due to regulatory cost disease. When you look at industries allowed to be profitable, they go and build things like the Bakkan oil fields. It's perverse that we regulate nuclear out of existence and build sprawling fracking infrastructure instead, and allow a dysfunctional political process to kill rail in California. But it's 100% about regulation. US nuclear engineers are old? Great, Chinese ones aren't and we can pay them more. We hire them, problem solved.
  - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
    The mindset that blames regulation is the same mindset that created this problem in the first place. It's the neoliberal fantasy that world of atoms doesn't matter, and skills of the population doesn't matter. You can't magic your way out of a problem just because you have a fat bank account. You can't hire 50 nuclear engineers into an organisation that never built anything of that complexity, with no suppply chain and no manufacturing infrastructure. You can't get natural if you have no pipelines or LNG terminals. Whem climate-change related droughts cause food shortages and countries ban exports, your bank account wont help you either Money is just an abstraction, and it does a big correction every time suppy chains or markets faulter
- afarrell 4y ago
  It would be great if the US navy had floating nuclear power plants that they were willing to sail into Helsinki, Bremerhaven, or Portsmouth to provide additional power to our allies during this winter.
doikor 4y ago
> the last attempt to do so didn't go so well. It has been running for months now (doing tests). And for these latest delays we should mainly blame the Germans (Siemens) due to their faulty automation systems and steam turbine. Can't put all the blame on the French :(

soco 4y ago

I though when you build an existing model the costs and planning estimations would get a bit closer to reality...

hocuspocus 4y ago
Taishan proved you can build EPRs near cost and time estimates. EDF has promised a simplified design for the EPR2 (after learning from 20 years of mistakes) but it's probably not going to fix the sad state of our nuclear industry in Europe, suffering from a lot of internal and external inefficiencies.
- distances 4y ago
  I have no proof, but I have a strong feeling that the Chinese nuclear safety authority isn't nowhere near as picky as the Finnish counterpart. Lots of the delays were caused by orders to rebuild after failed quality checks from the authorities.
  - hocuspocus 4y ago
    Certainly, but this is mostly a self-inflicted problem in the EU. Everything that is procured through a public tender gets done by the lowest bidder.
    - Gwypaas 4y ago
      Olkiluoto 3 is built by a private company to provide power for a consortium of industry companies, no lowest bidder in sight. Still the same issue though, wonder if it's nuclear that is hard or public procurement? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teollisuuden_Voima https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teollisuuden_Voima
      - hocuspocus 4y ago
        From what I read about the EPR fiasco in France, Finland and the UK, there are always many contractors and subcontractors involved. Some delays were due to a real lack or loss of industrial knowledge and tooling (many components of the EPR are considerably larger than those of previous reactor designs) which can explain poor procurement choice, others are more easily explained by construction companies that were just not up to the task, when it's "just" faulty concrete or welding.
        doikor 4y ago
        > when it's "just" faulty concrete or welding. In Finland during construction the local nuclear safety company found reinforced concrete that had 0 rebar in it etc forcing a lot of stuff to be redone due to someone trying to cut expenses. Though those issues happened a long time ago. The recent delays are mostly issues with the automation systems and the turbine (both subcontracted to Siemens by Areva). But yeah a lot of the issues are the "nobody has ever done this before". The steam turbine used by these plants is literally the largest ever built.

ClumsyPilot 4y ago

Nuclear is always late and over budget in the West because everyone who knows how to build reactors is long dead or retired. Thats what get when you loose skilled workforce. We are incompetent at building all kinds of infrastructure - UK completed crossrail almost 10 years late,and HS2 is 3x overbudget. This country invented railways! California also can't build a railway apparently. I am not sure how a functional country continues on this trajectory

samatman 4y ago
The lack of industrial capacity is almost purely due to regulatory cost disease. When you look at industries allowed to be profitable, they go and build things like the Bakkan oil fields. It's perverse that we regulate nuclear out of existence and build sprawling fracking infrastructure instead, and allow a dysfunctional political process to kill rail in California. But it's 100% about regulation. US nuclear engineers are old? Great, Chinese ones aren't and we can pay them more. We hire them, problem solved.
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago
  The mindset that blames regulation is the same mindset that created this problem in the first place. It's the neoliberal fantasy that world of atoms doesn't matter, and skills of the population doesn't matter. You can't magic your way out of a problem just because you have a fat bank account. You can't hire 50 nuclear engineers into an organisation that never built anything of that complexity, with no suppply chain and no manufacturing infrastructure. You can't get natural if you have no pipelines or LNG terminals. Whem climate-change related droughts cause food shortages and countries ban exports, your bank account wont help you either Money is just an abstraction, and it does a big correction every time suppy chains or markets faulter
afarrell 4y ago
It would be great if the US navy had floating nuclear power plants that they were willing to sail into Helsinki, Bremerhaven, or Portsmouth to provide additional power to our allies during this winter.

doikor 4y ago

> the last attempt to do so didn't go so well. It has been running for months now (doing tests). And for these latest delays we should mainly blame the Germans (Siemens) due to their faulty automation systems and steam turbine. Can't put all the blame on the French :(