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"Learning to program teaches you how to think. Computer science is a liberal art." Imagine all the hate the source of this quotation would receive on here if t

"Learning to program teaches you how to think. Computer science is a liberal art." Imagine all the hate the source of this quotation would receive on here if this didn't come from The Steve.

nolanw 15y ago
Well it's certainly not a science as the scientific method is nowhere to be found. The closest thing to it at most universities is the math department, which seems to end up in the arts faculty as often as not. I'd argue there's widespread acceptance that neither math nor computer science are sciences (in the sense that, say, physics or biology are), and if something isn't a science, it's either an art or its own thing. Who did you have in mind as the source of hatred?
- baddox 15y ago
  Where do you live? I've never heard of a college math department being part of the art department. In the USA, computer science departments are usually either closely attached to the math department, or are part of the engineering school if the college has one. Obviously, your whole argument depends on the definition of "science" more than anything. Using the naive middle school definition of science, as in "the scientific method," perhaps math and CS don't qualify (although there is in fact a lot of experimental/observational work in CS, particularly in "real-world" applications like general-purpose encryption/compression, cache invalidation, process scheduling, etc.). However, using a broader definition of science, like the one Wikipedia gives, it's clear that math and CS easily qualify.
  - defen 15y ago
    At Princeton University, undergraduate math degree is A.B. (Bachelor of Arts), but undergraduate CS degree can be either A.B. or B.S.E (Bachelors of Science in Engineering) depending on course of study.
    - antics 15y ago
      The "arts" in "Bachelor of Arts" refers to liberal arts, not to arts in the modern sense, as you are implying. The liberal arts are subjects that people who were free to pursue earthly endeavors (i.e., not slaves) were expected to study in order to fully distinguish themselves from the slave class. One example of this is reading and writing, which was a skill that free people were pretty much universally expected to have, and which slaves were often blatantly forbidden to acquire. During the middle ages, the liberal arts grew to include geometry and arithmetic, and we now think of most math, even complicated math, to fall under the heading of the liberal arts. In contrast, a BSE would cover other things, like architecture or chemical engineering. baddox is therefore correct in questioning whether college math would fall into faculty of arts, which they should not, since faculty of arts these days means almost without exception faculty of studies of art, not faculty of the study of liberal arts. nolanw is either going to a very peculiar college, or is wrong.
      - defen 15y ago
        I think there's been a big misunderstanding somewhere - I interpreted nolanw's "arts faculty" to mean liberal arts, not arts in the contemporary sense. So when I read baddox's reply I assumed he disagreed with how I interpreted it - i.e. I thought baddox was claiming math does not belong in the liberal arts. Heh...very confusing. What I'm trying to say is that there's a 99.9% chance that we're all in agreement and it really hinges on what nolanw really meant by "arts faculty".
        antics 15y ago
        Argh, English. If this is the case, then I do apologize indeed.
        tensor 15y ago
        My problem with Jobs quote is that it seems to imply that learning math is somehow not learning. Thus I assume he means liberal arts not as in mathematics or anything practical, but as in a pursuit that is mostly not immediately practical as one might argue about modern philosophy. Jobs'own technologies are often based on solid computer science principles. I'm somewhat surprised that he could recognize the utility of these technologies yet not recognize the source of them. The quote could probably use a lot more context.
dylangs1030 15y ago
I don't agree. I think the quotes listed are sufficiently universal, but not implicitly obvious, that they would be appreciated from just about any source. Unless of course that source was being hypocritical. I don't think this is a case of Jobs worship - it just seems like the sort of advice Paul Graham would have given. Good, solid advice.
tesseract 15y ago
Three of the traditional seven liberal arts (grammar, logic, rhetoric, arithmetic, geometry, music, astronomy) are today considered branches of mathematics - is it really so hard to imagine computer science taking a place among these?
- celoyd 15y ago
  And only two of them are today considered humanities, which is what a lot of non-humanities people seem to be thinking when they say liberal arts. As someone who briefly attended a liberal arts college, when I hear liberal arts I understand it to mean something that encourages dance majors to take materials science courses just as much as vice-versa.

"Learning to program teaches you how to think. Computer science is a liberal art." Imagine all the hate the source of this quotation would receive on here if this didn't come from The Steve.

nolanw 15y ago

Well it's certainly not a science as the scientific method is nowhere to be found. The closest thing to it at most universities is the math department, which seems to end up in the arts faculty as often as not. I'd argue there's widespread acceptance that neither math nor computer science are sciences (in the sense that, say, physics or biology are), and if something isn't a science, it's either an art or its own thing. Who did you have in mind as the source of hatred?

baddox 15y ago
Where do you live? I've never heard of a college math department being part of the art department. In the USA, computer science departments are usually either closely attached to the math department, or are part of the engineering school if the college has one. Obviously, your whole argument depends on the definition of "science" more than anything. Using the naive middle school definition of science, as in "the scientific method," perhaps math and CS don't qualify (although there is in fact a lot of experimental/observational work in CS, particularly in "real-world" applications like general-purpose encryption/compression, cache invalidation, process scheduling, etc.). However, using a broader definition of science, like the one Wikipedia gives, it's clear that math and CS easily qualify.
- defen 15y ago
  At Princeton University, undergraduate math degree is A.B. (Bachelor of Arts), but undergraduate CS degree can be either A.B. or B.S.E (Bachelors of Science in Engineering) depending on course of study.
  - antics 15y ago
    The "arts" in "Bachelor of Arts" refers to liberal arts, not to arts in the modern sense, as you are implying. The liberal arts are subjects that people who were free to pursue earthly endeavors (i.e., not slaves) were expected to study in order to fully distinguish themselves from the slave class. One example of this is reading and writing, which was a skill that free people were pretty much universally expected to have, and which slaves were often blatantly forbidden to acquire. During the middle ages, the liberal arts grew to include geometry and arithmetic, and we now think of most math, even complicated math, to fall under the heading of the liberal arts. In contrast, a BSE would cover other things, like architecture or chemical engineering. baddox is therefore correct in questioning whether college math would fall into faculty of arts, which they should not, since faculty of arts these days means almost without exception faculty of studies of art, not faculty of the study of liberal arts. nolanw is either going to a very peculiar college, or is wrong.
    - defen 15y ago
      I think there's been a big misunderstanding somewhere - I interpreted nolanw's "arts faculty" to mean liberal arts, not arts in the contemporary sense. So when I read baddox's reply I assumed he disagreed with how I interpreted it - i.e. I thought baddox was claiming math does not belong in the liberal arts. Heh...very confusing. What I'm trying to say is that there's a 99.9% chance that we're all in agreement and it really hinges on what nolanw really meant by "arts faculty".
      - antics 15y ago
        Argh, English. If this is the case, then I do apologize indeed.
      - tensor 15y ago
        My problem with Jobs quote is that it seems to imply that learning math is somehow not learning. Thus I assume he means liberal arts not as in mathematics or anything practical, but as in a pursuit that is mostly not immediately practical as one might argue about modern philosophy. Jobs'own technologies are often based on solid computer science principles. I'm somewhat surprised that he could recognize the utility of these technologies yet not recognize the source of them. The quote could probably use a lot more context.

dylangs1030 15y ago

I don't agree. I think the quotes listed are sufficiently universal, but not implicitly obvious, that they would be appreciated from just about any source. Unless of course that source was being hypocritical. I don't think this is a case of Jobs worship - it just seems like the sort of advice Paul Graham would have given. Good, solid advice.

tesseract 15y ago

Three of the traditional seven liberal arts (grammar, logic, rhetoric, arithmetic, geometry, music, astronomy) are today considered branches of mathematics - is it really so hard to imagine computer science taking a place among these?

celoyd 15y ago
And only two of them are today considered humanities, which is what a lot of non-humanities people seem to be thinking when they say liberal arts. As someone who briefly attended a liberal arts college, when I hear liberal arts I understand it to mean something that encourages dance majors to take materials science courses just as much as vice-versa.