3 ms·

Why Boys and Men?

31 points by jseliger 4y ago

denimnerd42 4y ago
> Here I propose a simple but radical reform: start boys in school a year later than girls. This is almost universal here, but some girls are held back too. We do kindergarten twice and call one of the times "Primer, pronounced primmer." However unlike the article's subject, these are all elite families.
- ip26 4y ago
  How do you avoid the kid becoming incredibly bored?
  - kthejoker2 4y ago
    Here in Texas both language arts and math offer a "3 years in 2" program starting in 6th grade for advanced students. Also just fuel their interests outside of school, tons of free and low cost programs to learn coding, robotics, math, engineering, theater, music, dance, meteorology ...
seibelj 4y ago
Men and women are different. Can’t change that fact. Anyone who has children notices immediately that there are innate differences between the two (although if your memory is even fractionally good you should remember your own childhood). Why do gladiator sports (MMA, American football, boxing) remain popular? Men enjoy beating the shit out of each other. It’s not to say women can’t do the same, it’s just that on average men like beating each other up more. If you start extrapolating, there are all manner of differences between the genders. But this is somehow professional suicide to mention any of them if you work in elite industries. This “revelation” that men and boys need help, and specific types of help, is only shocking to the Brookings institution set and the types of people who get their news from elite sources. If you live among the hoi poloi this is not controversial whatsoever.
- dvfjsdhgfv 4y ago
  > Men enjoy beating the shit out of each other. While I agree with your comment, this part is an exaggeration. If you want to generalize, I'd say men like to prove to others they're better than them. They enjoy their victories. The more effort it takes, the better. For some people that involves physical violence, that's true, but I wouldn't call it universal. If you asked a random dude on the street, "Would you enjoy beating up that person", most probably he'd be awkwardly surprised and said, "Hell, no!" We're not psychopaths. But when there is a challenge, we like to take it.
  - ghusto 4y ago
    I think it's less 'beating up that person', and more 'being rough to the point where there is high risk of injury or pain'. My girlfriend is horrified at how our son and I play. She's told him in no uncertain terms that 'that's how you play with papa, not me!'. I believe that's universal (generally speaking).
choeger 4y ago
Where's the analysis, though? Why is the educational system geared towards a disadvantage for boys? I get it that the implication is puberty, which typically occurs later in boys. But that proposed change would only pull it from, say, 6th grade to 5th. That alone cannot be it, can it? So what's the cause of the problem?
- oaiey 4y ago
  Teachers are over-proportional female and schools typically do not foster aggressive (as in deterministic not bullying/hitting/...) behavior. In higher schools there is female-oriented mentoring which is not available for men in equal organized way. I am neither an expert, but this is common knowledge (at least in Germany). There is nothing too hard about it but like all things gender inequality it is about the paper cuts.
- belorn 4y ago
  Since the inequality last well past puberty, and historically the roles was reversed, the issue seems to have very little to do with biology. Historically people has always looked to biology to explain social inequality, and time and time again we view those historically as failed science. Race, hormones, and the female psyche where all used as scapegoats to explain cultural phenomenons. One of the biggest changes culturally in education is that women became overwhelming dominant in the teaching profession. Studies show that when women grade girls, or when men grade boys, the result get biased in favor of the teachers own gender. In addition, the mono gender in education has created an environment where teaching and culture causes a toxic mix. We can only look to other professions where 80-90% of the employees has the same gender and see how that effects the work culture.
- cassianoleal 4y ago
  > Where's the analysis, though? Probably in the book and in the subsequent releases of his newsletter.
satisfice 4y ago
Anything written about this makes the situation worse. The truth about men lies in how they take power, and why they must take power (in some way, if even metaphorical) or be sick at heart. Writing the truth about men frightens people who aren’t men. It is exactly the same issue and same dynamic if you try to write about world peace instead of discussing why brutality is so common in the world. Putin is a man. Putin’s thugs are men. The people fighting Putin are also men. Isis were men. Real power is often an ugly thing, but as long as you can’t stomach to really analyze it, you can’t understand men. What I have just written about men has only made things a little worse.

31 points by jseliger 4y ago

> Here I propose a simple but radical reform: start boys in school a year later than girls. This is almost universal here, but some girls are held back too. We do kindergarten twice and call one of the times "Primer, pronounced primmer." However unlike the article's subject, these are all elite families.

ip26 4y ago
How do you avoid the kid becoming incredibly bored?
- kthejoker2 4y ago
  Here in Texas both language arts and math offer a "3 years in 2" program starting in 6th grade for advanced students. Also just fuel their interests outside of school, tons of free and low cost programs to learn coding, robotics, math, engineering, theater, music, dance, meteorology ...

seibelj 4y ago

Men and women are different. Can’t change that fact. Anyone who has children notices immediately that there are innate differences between the two (although if your memory is even fractionally good you should remember your own childhood). Why do gladiator sports (MMA, American football, boxing) remain popular? Men enjoy beating the shit out of each other. It’s not to say women can’t do the same, it’s just that on average men like beating each other up more. If you start extrapolating, there are all manner of differences between the genders. But this is somehow professional suicide to mention any of them if you work in elite industries. This “revelation” that men and boys need help, and specific types of help, is only shocking to the Brookings institution set and the types of people who get their news from elite sources. If you live among the hoi poloi this is not controversial whatsoever.

dvfjsdhgfv 4y ago
> Men enjoy beating the shit out of each other. While I agree with your comment, this part is an exaggeration. If you want to generalize, I'd say men like to prove to others they're better than them. They enjoy their victories. The more effort it takes, the better. For some people that involves physical violence, that's true, but I wouldn't call it universal. If you asked a random dude on the street, "Would you enjoy beating up that person", most probably he'd be awkwardly surprised and said, "Hell, no!" We're not psychopaths. But when there is a challenge, we like to take it.
- ghusto 4y ago
  I think it's less 'beating up that person', and more 'being rough to the point where there is high risk of injury or pain'. My girlfriend is horrified at how our son and I play. She's told him in no uncertain terms that 'that's how you play with papa, not me!'. I believe that's universal (generally speaking).

choeger 4y ago

Where's the analysis, though? Why is the educational system geared towards a disadvantage for boys? I get it that the implication is puberty, which typically occurs later in boys. But that proposed change would only pull it from, say, 6th grade to 5th. That alone cannot be it, can it? So what's the cause of the problem?

oaiey 4y ago
Teachers are over-proportional female and schools typically do not foster aggressive (as in deterministic not bullying/hitting/...) behavior. In higher schools there is female-oriented mentoring which is not available for men in equal organized way. I am neither an expert, but this is common knowledge (at least in Germany). There is nothing too hard about it but like all things gender inequality it is about the paper cuts.
belorn 4y ago
Since the inequality last well past puberty, and historically the roles was reversed, the issue seems to have very little to do with biology. Historically people has always looked to biology to explain social inequality, and time and time again we view those historically as failed science. Race, hormones, and the female psyche where all used as scapegoats to explain cultural phenomenons. One of the biggest changes culturally in education is that women became overwhelming dominant in the teaching profession. Studies show that when women grade girls, or when men grade boys, the result get biased in favor of the teachers own gender. In addition, the mono gender in education has created an environment where teaching and culture causes a toxic mix. We can only look to other professions where 80-90% of the employees has the same gender and see how that effects the work culture.
cassianoleal 4y ago
> Where's the analysis, though? Probably in the book and in the subsequent releases of his newsletter.

satisfice 4y ago

Anything written about this makes the situation worse. The truth about men lies in how they take power, and why they must take power (in some way, if even metaphorical) or be sick at heart. Writing the truth about men frightens people who aren’t men. It is exactly the same issue and same dynamic if you try to write about world peace instead of discussing why brutality is so common in the world. Putin is a man. Putin’s thugs are men. The people fighting Putin are also men. Isis were men. Real power is often an ugly thing, but as long as you can’t stomach to really analyze it, you can’t understand men. What I have just written about men has only made things a little worse.