8 ms·

Honestly, it sounds more as if author is just not experienced enough to reap the rewards of containers/IaaC. Having some servers as pets is fine for time being

Honestly, it sounds more as if author is just not experienced enough to reap the rewards of containers/IaaC. Having some servers as pets is fine for time being, but after being used to the cattle little pesky issues & upkeep starts to annoy more and more and you either give up on it and leave neglected or slowly build up most of the infra you ran away from in the first place.

blueflow 4y ago
It depends on your software selection. I run machines than i do updates on twice a year and thats all the maintenance they need. Less than a person-day per year!
- neoromantique 4y ago
  You're right, I might've extrapolated my usage/experience onto the author accidentally, maybe his use case is indeed different. I still don't know why you wouldn't use containers though, even if you dislike Docker, something like LXC makes everything oh-so neater.
  - blueflow 4y ago
    I tried both Docker and Bubblewrap. Containers help with managing dependency creep, but if you avoid that in the first place, you don't need containers.
    - neoromantique 4y ago
      If you only run your own software and are conscious about your dependencies, then dependency creep is gonna be less of an issue, but don't forget that your dependencies often bring theirs too. And third-party software is very often much less mindful of it. But even besides dependency creep, containers simplify your software env, simplify backups, migrations, permissions(although container are not replacement for secure isolation), file system access, network routing etc,etc,etc.
      - marginalia_nu 4y ago
        Containers also make performance tuning and optimization a lot harder, and increase resource consumption by a far greater degree than people are willing to admit. On a by-container basis it's not a lot, a few hundred megabytes here and there, but it builds up very rapidly. This is compounded by containerizing making the ecosystem more complex, which creates a demand for additional containers to manage and monitor all the containers. I freed up like 20 Gb of RAM by getting rid of everything container-related on my search engine server and switching to running everything on bare-metal debian.
        neoromantique 4y ago
        Containers of course add some overhead, however it is negligible in modern world. I honestly don't know what you have to do to get 20 gigs of overhead with containers, dozens of full ubuntu containers with dev packages and stuff?
        marginalia_nu 4y ago
        > Containers of course add some overhead, however it is negligible in modern world. I feel the people most enthusiastically trying to convince you of this are the infrastructure providers who also coincidentally bill you for every megabyte you use. > I honestly don't know what you have to do to get 20 gigs of overhead with containers, dozens of full ubuntu containers with dev packages and stuff? Maybe 5 Gb from the containers alone, they were pretty slim containers, but a few dozen of them in total; but I ran microk8s which was a handful of gigabytes, I could also get rid of kibana and grafana, which was a bunch more.
        neoromantique 4y ago
        >I feel the people most enthusiastically trying to convince you of this are the infrastructure providers who also coincidentally bill you for every megabyte you use. They don't though? Cloud providers sell VM tiers, not individual megabites, and even then on Linux there is barely any overhead for anything, but memory, and memory one is, again, if you optimize it far enough is negligible. >but I ran microk8s which was a handful of gigabytes My k3s with a dozen of pods fits in couple gigs.

blueflow 4y ago

It depends on your software selection. I run machines than i do updates on twice a year and thats all the maintenance they need. Less than a person-day per year!

neoromantique 4y ago
You're right, I might've extrapolated my usage/experience onto the author accidentally, maybe his use case is indeed different. I still don't know why you wouldn't use containers though, even if you dislike Docker, something like LXC makes everything oh-so neater.
- blueflow 4y ago
  I tried both Docker and Bubblewrap. Containers help with managing dependency creep, but if you avoid that in the first place, you don't need containers.
  - neoromantique 4y ago
    If you only run your own software and are conscious about your dependencies, then dependency creep is gonna be less of an issue, but don't forget that your dependencies often bring theirs too. And third-party software is very often much less mindful of it. But even besides dependency creep, containers simplify your software env, simplify backups, migrations, permissions(although container are not replacement for secure isolation), file system access, network routing etc,etc,etc.
    - marginalia_nu 4y ago
      Containers also make performance tuning and optimization a lot harder, and increase resource consumption by a far greater degree than people are willing to admit. On a by-container basis it's not a lot, a few hundred megabytes here and there, but it builds up very rapidly. This is compounded by containerizing making the ecosystem more complex, which creates a demand for additional containers to manage and monitor all the containers. I freed up like 20 Gb of RAM by getting rid of everything container-related on my search engine server and switching to running everything on bare-metal debian.
      - neoromantique 4y ago
        Containers of course add some overhead, however it is negligible in modern world. I honestly don't know what you have to do to get 20 gigs of overhead with containers, dozens of full ubuntu containers with dev packages and stuff?
        marginalia_nu 4y ago
        > Containers of course add some overhead, however it is negligible in modern world. I feel the people most enthusiastically trying to convince you of this are the infrastructure providers who also coincidentally bill you for every megabyte you use. > I honestly don't know what you have to do to get 20 gigs of overhead with containers, dozens of full ubuntu containers with dev packages and stuff? Maybe 5 Gb from the containers alone, they were pretty slim containers, but a few dozen of them in total; but I ran microk8s which was a handful of gigabytes, I could also get rid of kibana and grafana, which was a bunch more.
        neoromantique 4y ago
        >I feel the people most enthusiastically trying to convince you of this are the infrastructure providers who also coincidentally bill you for every megabyte you use. They don't though? Cloud providers sell VM tiers, not individual megabites, and even then on Linux there is barely any overhead for anything, but memory, and memory one is, again, if you optimize it far enough is negligible. >but I ran microk8s which was a handful of gigabytes My k3s with a dozen of pods fits in couple gigs.