8 ms·

Is this because Norway is only energy independent across annual average load, and can't handle peak usage? Or because theres some contractual arrangement where

by nly 4y ago

Is this because Norway is only energy independent across annual average load, and can't handle peak usage? Or because theres some contractual arrangement where they can't sell electricity cheaper to domestic users?

beebeepka 4y ago
As far as I know, they have not built the infrastructure to move the cheap excess power down south and some are using the EU as a scapegoat. Don't take my word for it, though.
- vladvasiliu 4y ago
  > some are using the EU as a scapegoat What's the argument there? I'd think that since Norway isn't fully in the EU, they'd have more leeway in internal matters?
  - kzrdude 4y ago
    Norway is in the European Economic Area (EEA) which means that one strong party (EU) in that treaty dictates a lot of market rules for Norway.
- kzrdude 4y ago
  It's questionable how much better transfer capacity would help prices (it would help the grid, though). I think it's more true that the situation you are mentioning insulates northern Norway from continental prices, than the opposite.
- hmottestad 4y ago
  There has been a lot of talk about building more infrastructure between the North of Norway and the south. I personally don't think that it would make much difference except increase the prices in the north. The North of Norway produces about 17% of all the electricity in Norway in 2017 with about 10% of countries population. It's also colder for a lot longer up there. Ongoing joke: Missed the summer this year, had to go to the loo. The latest news was that most of the excess capacity will be used up within the next few years because the oil and gas industry is mandated to connect their plattforms to the electrical grid instead of producing their own power from gas.
- Tor3 4y ago
  EU is not used as a scapegoat except for those who use EU as a scapegoat for everything - there's always someone. The 'scapegoat', if you will, is the Acer contract - and that's not really a scapegoat, it's the real issue: Exports must continue until prices balances at both ends.
kzrdude 4y ago
It's the latter. Domestic users pay the same as those that Norway export to.
- verisimi 4y ago
  So how is the country serving the people? How can a contract mean you need to raise prices for the citizens? This can only be the case if the government is not acting in good faith, and has planned for this eventuality. I'm still amazed how people think their government is there to help, especially in nordic countries, when it is plainly just an extraction and control device.
  - doikor 4y ago
    > This can only be the case if the government is not acting in good faith, and has planned for this eventuality. Because during normal times it actually leads to cheaper prices. It has only really been an issue now due to the crisis. Also this is mostly a consequence of the free market. In the late 90s and early 2000s the Nordic countries freed the electricity markets of the very tight government control. The markets then over time decided that they can make more money by combining each other by joining nord pool (originally a Norwegian company)
    - kzrdude 4y ago
      There is not just one way to have a free market. The market rules determine market outcomes, and different methods for how prices are formed could be used.
      - jabl 4y ago
        Sure, electricity is in some sense a pretty artificial market with the auctions and system operator etc etc. OTOH, commodities generally price at the margin, and the rules for the electricity market have been designed to mimic this price finding process that comes about more naturally in other commodity markets. So while currently there are certainly big issues with how the market functions due to Putin, anyone suggesting any major reform will have to think long and hard what the market mechanics are supposed to be, and what could be unintentional side-effects of that mechanism. At the moment there is a lot of political pressure to do something, anything, and it's very likely such hasty proposals will be throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

by nly 4y ago

beebeepka 4y ago

As far as I know, they have not built the infrastructure to move the cheap excess power down south and some are using the EU as a scapegoat. Don't take my word for it, though.

vladvasiliu 4y ago
> some are using the EU as a scapegoat What's the argument there? I'd think that since Norway isn't fully in the EU, they'd have more leeway in internal matters?
- kzrdude 4y ago
  Norway is in the European Economic Area (EEA) which means that one strong party (EU) in that treaty dictates a lot of market rules for Norway.
kzrdude 4y ago
It's questionable how much better transfer capacity would help prices (it would help the grid, though). I think it's more true that the situation you are mentioning insulates northern Norway from continental prices, than the opposite.
hmottestad 4y ago
There has been a lot of talk about building more infrastructure between the North of Norway and the south. I personally don't think that it would make much difference except increase the prices in the north. The North of Norway produces about 17% of all the electricity in Norway in 2017 with about 10% of countries population. It's also colder for a lot longer up there. Ongoing joke: Missed the summer this year, had to go to the loo. The latest news was that most of the excess capacity will be used up within the next few years because the oil and gas industry is mandated to connect their plattforms to the electrical grid instead of producing their own power from gas.
Tor3 4y ago
EU is not used as a scapegoat except for those who use EU as a scapegoat for everything - there's always someone. The 'scapegoat', if you will, is the Acer contract - and that's not really a scapegoat, it's the real issue: Exports must continue until prices balances at both ends.

kzrdude 4y ago

It's the latter. Domestic users pay the same as those that Norway export to.

verisimi 4y ago
So how is the country serving the people? How can a contract mean you need to raise prices for the citizens? This can only be the case if the government is not acting in good faith, and has planned for this eventuality. I'm still amazed how people think their government is there to help, especially in nordic countries, when it is plainly just an extraction and control device.
- doikor 4y ago
  > This can only be the case if the government is not acting in good faith, and has planned for this eventuality. Because during normal times it actually leads to cheaper prices. It has only really been an issue now due to the crisis. Also this is mostly a consequence of the free market. In the late 90s and early 2000s the Nordic countries freed the electricity markets of the very tight government control. The markets then over time decided that they can make more money by combining each other by joining nord pool (originally a Norwegian company)
  - kzrdude 4y ago
    There is not just one way to have a free market. The market rules determine market outcomes, and different methods for how prices are formed could be used.
    - jabl 4y ago
      Sure, electricity is in some sense a pretty artificial market with the auctions and system operator etc etc. OTOH, commodities generally price at the margin, and the rules for the electricity market have been designed to mimic this price finding process that comes about more naturally in other commodity markets. So while currently there are certainly big issues with how the market functions due to Putin, anyone suggesting any major reform will have to think long and hard what the market mechanics are supposed to be, and what could be unintentional side-effects of that mechanism. At the moment there is a lot of political pressure to do something, anything, and it's very likely such hasty proposals will be throwing the baby out with the bathwater.