4 ms·

You know which PoW chain is the one true chain because it is the one with the most work. What is the equivalent mechanism in PoS?

idiotsecant 4y ago
That's not at all true - chains pop up all the time with less work and are relatively successful for a time. Bitcoin cash had substantially less work in the network and was (and maybe still is, I don't know) quite popular. Ethereum classic has much less PoW power and it was quite popular for a bit. If people are using it isn't a 'fake' chain in any sense - just a less popular one. That's sort of how distributed consensus works. What is the 'true' hamburger chain? What is the 'true' flavor of ice cream? If less people like bacon flavored ice cream or vanilla flavored hamburgers it doesn't make them not 'true' representation of the archetype, just unpopular ones.
- aserafini 4y ago
  The most "popular" chain in PoW is the one that has the most work. How should someone determine the most "popular" chain in PoS based on the chain history alone? Is it the one with the most 'staked'? The problem (which PoW doesn't have) is that alternative versions of valid PoS history can be generated at zero or close to zero cost.
  - idiotsecant 4y ago
    >How should someone determine the most "popular" chain in PoS based on the chain history alone? Is it the one with the most 'staked'? Yes. >The problem (which PoW doesn't have) is that alternative versions of valid PoS history can be generated at zero or close to zero cost. This is simply a misunderstanding of how it works. In order for you to propose a version of the chain that has some other history you need network consensus. If you claim something that is not true you get slashed. Thats the whole point. You can go make an entirely disconnected chain if you'd like to do that but you'll be the only one on it unless you can convince someone else to join you in your personal universe where you are a trillionare.
    - aserafini 4y ago
      You can generate valid alternative Ethereum PoS histories in private without getting slashed: just don’t propose them to network? This is unlike PoW, where even generating the history is expensive. This leaves a problem: how should new nodes joining the network know if the version of history they’ve been presented with is ‘honest’. The answer for Ethereum PoS is ‘checkpoints‘, but it’s not an ‘objective‘ measure, unlike ‘chain with most work’ in PoW. Even Vitalik admits this, it is why he invented the term ‘weak subjectivity’, he is totally explicit that this is a fundamental weakness of PoS: the valid chain is subjective. The only question that remains is whether the economic incentives that have been designed are good enough to work around this weakness and guarantee whatever properties Ethereum network users have decided is important.

idiotsecant 4y ago

That's not at all true - chains pop up all the time with less work and are relatively successful for a time. Bitcoin cash had substantially less work in the network and was (and maybe still is, I don't know) quite popular. Ethereum classic has much less PoW power and it was quite popular for a bit. If people are using it isn't a 'fake' chain in any sense - just a less popular one. That's sort of how distributed consensus works. What is the 'true' hamburger chain? What is the 'true' flavor of ice cream? If less people like bacon flavored ice cream or vanilla flavored hamburgers it doesn't make them not 'true' representation of the archetype, just unpopular ones.

aserafini 4y ago
The most "popular" chain in PoW is the one that has the most work. How should someone determine the most "popular" chain in PoS based on the chain history alone? Is it the one with the most 'staked'? The problem (which PoW doesn't have) is that alternative versions of valid PoS history can be generated at zero or close to zero cost.
- idiotsecant 4y ago
  >How should someone determine the most "popular" chain in PoS based on the chain history alone? Is it the one with the most 'staked'? Yes. >The problem (which PoW doesn't have) is that alternative versions of valid PoS history can be generated at zero or close to zero cost. This is simply a misunderstanding of how it works. In order for you to propose a version of the chain that has some other history you need network consensus. If you claim something that is not true you get slashed. Thats the whole point. You can go make an entirely disconnected chain if you'd like to do that but you'll be the only one on it unless you can convince someone else to join you in your personal universe where you are a trillionare.
  - aserafini 4y ago
    You can generate valid alternative Ethereum PoS histories in private without getting slashed: just don’t propose them to network? This is unlike PoW, where even generating the history is expensive. This leaves a problem: how should new nodes joining the network know if the version of history they’ve been presented with is ‘honest’. The answer for Ethereum PoS is ‘checkpoints‘, but it’s not an ‘objective‘ measure, unlike ‘chain with most work’ in PoW. Even Vitalik admits this, it is why he invented the term ‘weak subjectivity’, he is totally explicit that this is a fundamental weakness of PoS: the valid chain is subjective. The only question that remains is whether the economic incentives that have been designed are good enough to work around this weakness and guarantee whatever properties Ethereum network users have decided is important.