4 ms·

> more liberal minded folks that are more compassionate on those issues. Shouldn’t everyone have compassion for the poor and needy?

SomeBoolshit 4y ago
Should.
ido 4y ago
Unfortunately many people subscribe to the concept that we’re living in a meritocracy and thus if someone is poor it’s due to their own fault.
- zo1 4y ago
  Who/where are these many people and are you sure you are representing their points accurately?
  - colinmhayes 4y ago
    one of them is right below you
    - parkingrift 4y ago
      100%. Feel free to ask any clarifying questions. However, please note that although I do believe your situation in life is due to your own choices, that does not mean I have no compassion for people and the choices they’ve made.
- humanrebar 4y ago
  Homelessness is a complex subject. No one in good faith thinks a homeless addict needs to just bootstrap harder. At the same time, barring a major felony, and sometimes not even then, nobody is exactly forcing them into a successful engagement with a recovery program either. If someone is unable to make a rational decision on the subject, who's fault is it if they continue to be untreated?
  - mperham 4y ago
    You’re showing your own biases by assuming that all homeless people are addicts. There are tons of people living in their cars and barely scraping by. It’s the price of housing, we need more housing units full stop.
    - humanrebar 4y ago
      I didn't say all homeless people were addicts. I was illustrating my first sentence -- homelessness is a complex subject. I agree we need more housing. I also think we'll have "homelessness problems" even if we built enough housing to go around. There are a lot of intersecting problems.
- parkingrift 4y ago
  I have absolutely no shame in saying that I am one of those people.
- pessimizer 4y ago
  The sadistic belief that the dumber you are, the more in shit you should live. If I'm going to live in a meritocracy, let it at least be one that judges merit based on ethics, rather than by intelligence or who your parents are.
zo1 4y ago
Even us "evil" libertarians and free-market folk have compassion for the poor, suffering and needy. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
- Bud 4y ago
  Compassion is of little value without policy and actions to back it up.
  - newaccount2021 4y ago
  - RhysU 4y ago
    But ineffective policies and wasteful actions are also a funny way to express compassion.
  - tremon 4y ago
    On the contrary, it's much easier to justify institutional harshness if you assume individual compassion in the population. Then you get policies like "we don't need a social safety net (institutional compassion) because we have tax-deductible donations (institutional, discretional compassion)". Or similarly "we don't need progressive taxation because wealthy individuals employ more people" (i.e. the trickle-down fallacy).
    - MomoXenosaga 4y ago
      Ah yes donations I have my doubts libertarians will donate as much money to the needy as they pay in taxes to the government. Turns out people are assholes and you need to take their money by force- ie government.
      - ericmay 4y ago
        Perhaps they donate less because that disposable income is taken via taxation by the government? Seems equally plausible to me. Bucketing people so simply is a mistake. Often libertarians (similar to communists or any other political ideology) genuinely want to make things better and have genuine complaints about how things are run that would stand up to analysis. I lean libertarian myself in many ways. I don’t care who you marry or if you dye your hair blue. I don’t care if you get an abortion (your right to choose - I’m a strong supporter of abortion rights), etc. I support exploring universal healthcare as well because it’s clear that solutions we’ve tried in the past are suboptimal and we are being outcompeted here. Environmental concerns are something that libertarians strongly support. You polluting the air harms me and others. Destroying the rainforest harms me and others. But I also think market mechanics tend to solve problems better and we can see that with environmental concerns where public policy isn’t enough - you need a 1-2 punch of policy and market mechanics like a carbon credit or coin or something. The public schools are a problem for example because Conservatives believe that Liberals have taken them over (untrue IMO) and are dictating teaching political ideology. This is a problem because if you lose power (as liberals have done in many states) then you are now subject to what the other party wants taught. There’s room here to explore - and universities (which need reform) show how choosing where you go to school instead of basing it on regressive property tax systems which require housing by-in could work. There’s a lot we can figure out. I think for libertarians they should look at government less so as a thief and more of a platform. One thing you’ll note though is that libertarianism can accommodate communism, while the reverse isn’t true. That’s a key problem with certain ideologies like fascism or communism. People have been starting communes and worker collectives in America for a long time. There were never free markets or entrepreneurs starting new businesses in a meaningful way in Soviet Russia or Maoist China.
michaelt 4y ago
Most people want homelessness solved in their city. But if the number of visible rough sleepers falls, most people won't look too closely into whether the city provided treatment+housing+employment; or whether the city gave them a bus ticket to another city and send the cops to hassle them.
- pessimizer 4y ago
  Or whether they're warehoused in a prison for $40K a year, fed back into middle-class paychecks and upper-class stock returns.
MomoXenosaga 4y ago
Fuck compassion what kind of idiot wants to have to wave through homeless guys every rush hour? My country is rich I want it to look the part.
- InCityDreams 4y ago
  "wave"? Your country needs a decent grammer check, and punctuation. (....aaaaand in 5, 4, 3.....:-)

SomeBoolshit 4y ago

Should.

ido 4y ago

Unfortunately many people subscribe to the concept that we’re living in a meritocracy and thus if someone is poor it’s due to their own fault.

zo1 4y ago
Who/where are these many people and are you sure you are representing their points accurately?
- colinmhayes 4y ago
  one of them is right below you
  - parkingrift 4y ago
    100%. Feel free to ask any clarifying questions. However, please note that although I do believe your situation in life is due to your own choices, that does not mean I have no compassion for people and the choices they’ve made.
humanrebar 4y ago
Homelessness is a complex subject. No one in good faith thinks a homeless addict needs to just bootstrap harder. At the same time, barring a major felony, and sometimes not even then, nobody is exactly forcing them into a successful engagement with a recovery program either. If someone is unable to make a rational decision on the subject, who's fault is it if they continue to be untreated?
- mperham 4y ago
  You’re showing your own biases by assuming that all homeless people are addicts. There are tons of people living in their cars and barely scraping by. It’s the price of housing, we need more housing units full stop.
  - humanrebar 4y ago
    I didn't say all homeless people were addicts. I was illustrating my first sentence -- homelessness is a complex subject. I agree we need more housing. I also think we'll have "homelessness problems" even if we built enough housing to go around. There are a lot of intersecting problems.
parkingrift 4y ago
I have absolutely no shame in saying that I am one of those people.
pessimizer 4y ago
The sadistic belief that the dumber you are, the more in shit you should live. If I'm going to live in a meritocracy, let it at least be one that judges merit based on ethics, rather than by intelligence or who your parents are.

zo1 4y ago

Even us "evil" libertarians and free-market folk have compassion for the poor, suffering and needy. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

Bud 4y ago
Compassion is of little value without policy and actions to back it up.
- newaccount2021 4y ago
- RhysU 4y ago
  But ineffective policies and wasteful actions are also a funny way to express compassion.
- tremon 4y ago
  On the contrary, it's much easier to justify institutional harshness if you assume individual compassion in the population. Then you get policies like "we don't need a social safety net (institutional compassion) because we have tax-deductible donations (institutional, discretional compassion)". Or similarly "we don't need progressive taxation because wealthy individuals employ more people" (i.e. the trickle-down fallacy).
  - MomoXenosaga 4y ago
    Ah yes donations I have my doubts libertarians will donate as much money to the needy as they pay in taxes to the government. Turns out people are assholes and you need to take their money by force- ie government.
    - ericmay 4y ago
      Perhaps they donate less because that disposable income is taken via taxation by the government? Seems equally plausible to me. Bucketing people so simply is a mistake. Often libertarians (similar to communists or any other political ideology) genuinely want to make things better and have genuine complaints about how things are run that would stand up to analysis. I lean libertarian myself in many ways. I don’t care who you marry or if you dye your hair blue. I don’t care if you get an abortion (your right to choose - I’m a strong supporter of abortion rights), etc. I support exploring universal healthcare as well because it’s clear that solutions we’ve tried in the past are suboptimal and we are being outcompeted here. Environmental concerns are something that libertarians strongly support. You polluting the air harms me and others. Destroying the rainforest harms me and others. But I also think market mechanics tend to solve problems better and we can see that with environmental concerns where public policy isn’t enough - you need a 1-2 punch of policy and market mechanics like a carbon credit or coin or something. The public schools are a problem for example because Conservatives believe that Liberals have taken them over (untrue IMO) and are dictating teaching political ideology. This is a problem because if you lose power (as liberals have done in many states) then you are now subject to what the other party wants taught. There’s room here to explore - and universities (which need reform) show how choosing where you go to school instead of basing it on regressive property tax systems which require housing by-in could work. There’s a lot we can figure out. I think for libertarians they should look at government less so as a thief and more of a platform. One thing you’ll note though is that libertarianism can accommodate communism, while the reverse isn’t true. That’s a key problem with certain ideologies like fascism or communism. People have been starting communes and worker collectives in America for a long time. There were never free markets or entrepreneurs starting new businesses in a meaningful way in Soviet Russia or Maoist China.

michaelt 4y ago

Most people want homelessness solved in their city. But if the number of visible rough sleepers falls, most people won't look too closely into whether the city provided treatment+housing+employment; or whether the city gave them a bus ticket to another city and send the cops to hassle them.

pessimizer 4y ago
Or whether they're warehoused in a prison for $40K a year, fed back into middle-class paychecks and upper-class stock returns.

MomoXenosaga 4y ago

Fuck compassion what kind of idiot wants to have to wave through homeless guys every rush hour? My country is rich I want it to look the part.

InCityDreams 4y ago
"wave"? Your country needs a decent grammer check, and punctuation. (....aaaaand in 5, 4, 3.....:-)