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Lithium is nearly twice as abundant as lead in the earth’s crust. I don’t hear anyone saying we’re running out of lead.

thoughtstheseus 4y ago
We are not running out. The article states current electrification goals are not feasible based on existing raw material production (mining). Bear in mind the overwhelming majority of global industrial infrastructure needs to be replaced. Recycling is also not clear cut for many of the metals and minerals needed. It’s a big gap to meet and few want to mine.
8note 4y ago
Are we currently trying to cover the world in a thin layer of lead like we are for lithium?
- conception 4y ago
  There’s a second amendment nut joke in there somewhere.
- CGamesPlay 4y ago
  Probably a better way to say this is “we are currently trying to cover the world in a slightly thicker layer of lithium than we are lead”. Lead’s everywhere! Including in (non-EV) car batteries and until recently some forms of petrol, which are pretty much everywhere.
  - idiocrat 4y ago
    Lithium is a psychotropics. I wonder what would be the unintended consequences of exposing the environment with higher concentration of lithium. (the thicker layer)
    - henearkr 4y ago
      Actually, maybe good consequences. Lithium presence in drinking water (from natural sources) has been linked to lower crimes rate, suicides rate, and is acting as a mood stabilizer.
      - Natsu 4y ago
        You don't want it too high, though. If your body's lithium levels get too high, you get new problems. But this is why anyone taking it has to have their lithium levels checked from time to time.
      - darraghenright 4y ago
        This reminds me of an old well in Co. Kerry, Ireland which was legendary for its magical ability to cure madness. In more recent times, analysis of the water confirmed it was laced with lithium. http://westkerry.com/blog/?page_id=271 http://westkerry.com/blog/?page_id=271
      - dzhiurgis 4y ago
        Is the mechanism of action known?
    - kortex 4y ago
      None. Lithium only starts being psychotropic above a few mg per day (typically hundreds of mg per day for therapeutic, but it is suspected by some to be active well below that). The intake from the environment would be micrograms/day, if not even less, above natural background. There are water sources with far higher natural concentrations.
jjcon 4y ago
> I don’t hear anyone saying we’re running out of lead. Don't know much about materials science but is demand for lead expected to equal demand for lithium?
- saurik 4y ago
  There is about the same weight of lead in a normal car with a lead acid battery as there is lithium in an EV, but I don't know how we are measuring the total available amount of both for that abundance as the weight of an atom of lead is like 30-35 times that of lithium.
  - lelanthran 4y ago
    > There is about the same weight of lead in a normal car with a lead acid battery as there is lithium in an EV, but I don't know how we are measuring the total available amount of both for that abundance as the weight of an atom of lead is like 30-35 times that of lithium. This I never knew! Is there really only 3Kgs of lithium in a Tesla battery pack?
    - int_19h 4y ago
      Your typical car lead-acid battery has 8-10 kg of lead.
      - lelanthran 4y ago
        > Your typical car lead-acid battery has 8-10 kg of lead. I didn't think so - the full lead-acid battery itself weighs less than 10kg, and it appeared to me that about half of that weight was the solution (water). Even if true, though, still very surprised that a ~550kg EV battery has less than 10kg of lithium.
        saurik 4y ago
        https://www.barrons.com/amp/articles/new-risk-tesla-other-electric-vehicle-makers-lithium-supply-batteries-51601498472 https://www.barrons.com/amp/articles/new-risk-tesla-other-el... > a single EV has roughly 10 kilograms—or 22 pounds—of lithium in it https://www2.calrecycle.ca.gov/Publications/Download/1391?opt= https://www2.calrecycle.ca.gov/Publications/Download/1391?op... > The average battery contains between 16 to 21 pounds of lead FWIW this might be particularly useful: https://www.quora.com/Does-Teslas-70-kWh-battery-have-63-kg-of-lithium-and-if-so-why/answer/Chad-Courtney-1 https://www.quora.com/Does-Teslas-70-kWh-battery-have-63-kg-... > The original 70kWh Model S battery had 63kg of Lithium Carbonate Li2CO3. Often this was stated as the amount of lithium, which isn’t correct. Especially when people tried to compare it to the amount of known lithium available. While it’s typically sold as Lithium Carbonate, that’s not equivalent to the amount of Lithium available. > There’s about 12kg of Lithium in 63kg of Lithium Carbonate, so that original 70kWh Model S battery had 12kg of Lithium. I don’t know how much it has today, but they’ve been improving the chemistry to use less materials like Cobalt and Lithium.
twothamendment 4y ago
EV (currently) demands lithium and ICE uses lead. Why are we not running out of lead? 1.Lead batteries my be old tech, but it means we've had time to have a recycling process that recovers almost all of the lead one the battery. 2. There is a lot more battery in an EV. My pickup has 2 large batteries, but they don't even come close to the size, weight or volume of the battery in a small EV.
janef0421 4y ago
That's a misleading figure. Lithium is highly reactive, meaning useful lithium deposits are relatively rare.

We are not running out. The article states current electrification goals are not feasible based on existing raw material production (mining). Bear in mind the overwhelming majority of global industrial infrastructure needs to be replaced. Recycling is also not clear cut for many of the metals and minerals needed. It’s a big gap to meet and few want to mine.

8note 4y ago

Are we currently trying to cover the world in a thin layer of lead like we are for lithium?

conception 4y ago
There’s a second amendment nut joke in there somewhere.
CGamesPlay 4y ago
Probably a better way to say this is “we are currently trying to cover the world in a slightly thicker layer of lithium than we are lead”. Lead’s everywhere! Including in (non-EV) car batteries and until recently some forms of petrol, which are pretty much everywhere.
- idiocrat 4y ago
  Lithium is a psychotropics. I wonder what would be the unintended consequences of exposing the environment with higher concentration of lithium. (the thicker layer)
  - henearkr 4y ago
    Actually, maybe good consequences. Lithium presence in drinking water (from natural sources) has been linked to lower crimes rate, suicides rate, and is acting as a mood stabilizer.
    - Natsu 4y ago
      You don't want it too high, though. If your body's lithium levels get too high, you get new problems. But this is why anyone taking it has to have their lithium levels checked from time to time.
    - darraghenright 4y ago
      This reminds me of an old well in Co. Kerry, Ireland which was legendary for its magical ability to cure madness. In more recent times, analysis of the water confirmed it was laced with lithium. http://westkerry.com/blog/?page_id=271 http://westkerry.com/blog/?page_id=271
    - dzhiurgis 4y ago
      Is the mechanism of action known?
  - kortex 4y ago
    None. Lithium only starts being psychotropic above a few mg per day (typically hundreds of mg per day for therapeutic, but it is suspected by some to be active well below that). The intake from the environment would be micrograms/day, if not even less, above natural background. There are water sources with far higher natural concentrations.

jjcon 4y ago

> I don’t hear anyone saying we’re running out of lead. Don't know much about materials science but is demand for lead expected to equal demand for lithium?

saurik 4y ago
There is about the same weight of lead in a normal car with a lead acid battery as there is lithium in an EV, but I don't know how we are measuring the total available amount of both for that abundance as the weight of an atom of lead is like 30-35 times that of lithium.
- lelanthran 4y ago
  > There is about the same weight of lead in a normal car with a lead acid battery as there is lithium in an EV, but I don't know how we are measuring the total available amount of both for that abundance as the weight of an atom of lead is like 30-35 times that of lithium. This I never knew! Is there really only 3Kgs of lithium in a Tesla battery pack?
  - int_19h 4y ago
    Your typical car lead-acid battery has 8-10 kg of lead.
    - lelanthran 4y ago
      > Your typical car lead-acid battery has 8-10 kg of lead. I didn't think so - the full lead-acid battery itself weighs less than 10kg, and it appeared to me that about half of that weight was the solution (water). Even if true, though, still very surprised that a ~550kg EV battery has less than 10kg of lithium.
      - saurik 4y ago
        https://www.barrons.com/amp/articles/new-risk-tesla-other-electric-vehicle-makers-lithium-supply-batteries-51601498472 https://www.barrons.com/amp/articles/new-risk-tesla-other-el... > a single EV has roughly 10 kilograms—or 22 pounds—of lithium in it https://www2.calrecycle.ca.gov/Publications/Download/1391?opt= https://www2.calrecycle.ca.gov/Publications/Download/1391?op... > The average battery contains between 16 to 21 pounds of lead FWIW this might be particularly useful: https://www.quora.com/Does-Teslas-70-kWh-battery-have-63-kg-of-lithium-and-if-so-why/answer/Chad-Courtney-1 https://www.quora.com/Does-Teslas-70-kWh-battery-have-63-kg-... > The original 70kWh Model S battery had 63kg of Lithium Carbonate Li2CO3. Often this was stated as the amount of lithium, which isn’t correct. Especially when people tried to compare it to the amount of known lithium available. While it’s typically sold as Lithium Carbonate, that’s not equivalent to the amount of Lithium available. > There’s about 12kg of Lithium in 63kg of Lithium Carbonate, so that original 70kWh Model S battery had 12kg of Lithium. I don’t know how much it has today, but they’ve been improving the chemistry to use less materials like Cobalt and Lithium.

twothamendment 4y ago

EV (currently) demands lithium and ICE uses lead. Why are we not running out of lead? 1.Lead batteries my be old tech, but it means we've had time to have a recycling process that recovers almost all of the lead one the battery. 2. There is a lot more battery in an EV. My pickup has 2 large batteries, but they don't even come close to the size, weight or volume of the battery in a small EV.

janef0421 4y ago

That's a misleading figure. Lithium is highly reactive, meaning useful lithium deposits are relatively rare.