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How about research into Sodium ion batteries? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium-ion_battery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium-ion_battery

by noipv4 4y ago

kelnos 4y ago
I doubt they'd be a suitable replacement for Li-Ion, since their energy density is so much lower. They could be a great replacement for lead-acid batteries (batteries present in ICE cars), and probably some other applications, like when you want a rechargeable battery, but you don't care quite so much about the space required or weight. Unfortunately, when it comes to a phone, laptop, or EV, you really do care a lot about the space and weight.
- raverbashing 4y ago
  > like when you want a rechargeable battery, but you don't care quite so much about the space required or weight. Like all those batteries that Tesla and other companies installed for grid stabilization and load shifting? Yeah, that's where it's going to be used.
- throwawaymaths 4y ago
  If we go the way we need to, most battery applications (by total battery storage, not by unit produced) won't need space or weight constraints. Of course a car or phone phone will need to be lithium but there's no reason a Tesla powerwall (currently lithium) couldn't be 0.5x bigger; or certainly grid level electricity storage (currently CA has one second? I think and there is a plan to expand to three days of grid level). Probably even some semis or buses would be ok with a bigger battery
  - AstralStorm 4y ago
    Not to mention all of these issues (hot operating temperature, insulation weight) are easier to improve than ultimate capacity.
- darkwater 4y ago
  > lead-acid batteries (batteries present in ICE cars), Minor nitpick: they are still present in EVs as well.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- ephbit 4y ago
  I wouldn't be so sure they're out of the question. See https://altris.se https://altris.se
- dzhiurgis 4y ago
  Did you read the link you respond to? They are same volume, albeit heavier than Li-ion. Still perfectly suitable for grid storage and even certain vehicles. Hope we get Sodium Sulphur batteries soon. They'll be like 10x cheaper per kwh than current tech.
simpsond 4y ago
Many chemistries should be explored. Solid Power has a sulphide based solid electrolyte. Scaling to demand is the challenge.
- dzhiurgis 4y ago
  Sodium Sulphide is going to be huge if it works. Dirt cheap. Basically salt + waste + magic.
  - Ekaros 4y ago
    Sodium is easy part, but Sulfur might be a problem. I read article that most of it comes from by product of oil refining. As such if we stop refining as much oil we might need to find new sources. And it is also used in fertilizers and many industrial processes... Add extra demand for batteries and things start to look lot less rosy.
    - adrianN 4y ago
      Calcium sulfate (and I suppose other sulfates) are quite common.
AtlasBarfed 4y ago
https://pushevs.com/2022/05/04/li-fun-technology-will-mass-produce-sodium-ion-batteries-in-2023/ https://pushevs.com/2022/05/04/li-fun-technology-will-mass-p... 140 wh/kg is comparable to the LFP batteries used in SR model 3s in Tesla, so that implies a 300 mile EV car with no lithium. Yes it missed the 2022 date, but "planned production" is far better than "hey check out this research paper". 140 wh/kg should enable nearly all modes of day-to-day city and suburban driving. IMO that is a HUGE deal since that is a very large percentage of daily miles driven. I believe it is quite safe, having reduced safety/cooling like LFP which helps close the gap at pack level density with cobalt/nickel chemistries. But ... we'll see. But 200 wh/kg LFP (which should be 300-400 mile range cars and SUVs) combined with sodium ion for the "lesser" packs should enable a true BEV revolution at least in consumer cars. That would leave solid state / cobalt-nickel / sulfur for long distance trucking and other applications. Even if solid state makes it to market in the next couple years, I predict it will not be price competitive with Sodium Ion/LFP techs for quite a while after that. There will be plenty of buyers for practically all battery chemistries I would imagine.

How about research into Sodium ion batteries? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium-ion_battery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium-ion_battery

by noipv4 4y ago

How about research into Sodium ion batteries? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium-ion_battery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium-ion_battery

kelnos 4y ago

I doubt they'd be a suitable replacement for Li-Ion, since their energy density is so much lower. They could be a great replacement for lead-acid batteries (batteries present in ICE cars), and probably some other applications, like when you want a rechargeable battery, but you don't care quite so much about the space required or weight. Unfortunately, when it comes to a phone, laptop, or EV, you really do care a lot about the space and weight.

raverbashing 4y ago
> like when you want a rechargeable battery, but you don't care quite so much about the space required or weight. Like all those batteries that Tesla and other companies installed for grid stabilization and load shifting? Yeah, that's where it's going to be used.
throwawaymaths 4y ago
If we go the way we need to, most battery applications (by total battery storage, not by unit produced) won't need space or weight constraints. Of course a car or phone phone will need to be lithium but there's no reason a Tesla powerwall (currently lithium) couldn't be 0.5x bigger; or certainly grid level electricity storage (currently CA has one second? I think and there is a plan to expand to three days of grid level). Probably even some semis or buses would be ok with a bigger battery
- AstralStorm 4y ago
  Not to mention all of these issues (hot operating temperature, insulation weight) are easier to improve than ultimate capacity.
darkwater 4y ago
> lead-acid batteries (batteries present in ICE cars), Minor nitpick: they are still present in EVs as well.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
ephbit 4y ago
I wouldn't be so sure they're out of the question. See https://altris.se https://altris.se
dzhiurgis 4y ago
Did you read the link you respond to? They are same volume, albeit heavier than Li-ion. Still perfectly suitable for grid storage and even certain vehicles. Hope we get Sodium Sulphur batteries soon. They'll be like 10x cheaper per kwh than current tech.

simpsond 4y ago

Many chemistries should be explored. Solid Power has a sulphide based solid electrolyte. Scaling to demand is the challenge.

dzhiurgis 4y ago
Sodium Sulphide is going to be huge if it works. Dirt cheap. Basically salt + waste + magic.
- Ekaros 4y ago
  Sodium is easy part, but Sulfur might be a problem. I read article that most of it comes from by product of oil refining. As such if we stop refining as much oil we might need to find new sources. And it is also used in fertilizers and many industrial processes... Add extra demand for batteries and things start to look lot less rosy.
  - adrianN 4y ago
    Calcium sulfate (and I suppose other sulfates) are quite common.

AtlasBarfed 4y ago

https://pushevs.com/2022/05/04/li-fun-technology-will-mass-produce-sodium-ion-batteries-in-2023/ https://pushevs.com/2022/05/04/li-fun-technology-will-mass-p... 140 wh/kg is comparable to the LFP batteries used in SR model 3s in Tesla, so that implies a 300 mile EV car with no lithium. Yes it missed the 2022 date, but "planned production" is far better than "hey check out this research paper". 140 wh/kg should enable nearly all modes of day-to-day city and suburban driving. IMO that is a HUGE deal since that is a very large percentage of daily miles driven. I believe it is quite safe, having reduced safety/cooling like LFP which helps close the gap at pack level density with cobalt/nickel chemistries. But ... we'll see. But 200 wh/kg LFP (which should be 300-400 mile range cars and SUVs) combined with sodium ion for the "lesser" packs should enable a true BEV revolution at least in consumer cars. That would leave solid state / cobalt-nickel / sulfur for long distance trucking and other applications. Even if solid state makes it to market in the next couple years, I predict it will not be price competitive with Sodium Ion/LFP techs for quite a while after that. There will be plenty of buyers for practically all battery chemistries I would imagine.