4 ms·

“I’m sorry” 10 hours late followed by an excuse, plus he doubled down hard after the first one. Hard not to be turned off of the Zig language after this kind o

by rtev 4y ago

“I’m sorry” 10 hours late followed by an excuse, plus he doubled down hard after the first one. Hard not to be turned off of the Zig language after this kind of thing. Looks like he deleted the original tweet and is in full damage control mode

DangitBobby 4y ago
I don't understand how this could turn you off. Is it good? Is it useful? Use it. Who cares if some community rep guy is a perfect princess or a bit of an asshat.
- j-pb 4y ago
  This sentiment ignores, that programming, like everything, is a social endeavour.
  - DangitBobby 4y ago
    You aren't really hanging out with the guy who wrote that tweet when you use zig. And it seems a bit hasty to extrapolate his behavior to be representative of the entire community, if you think that matters.
- klyrs 4y ago
  Using a niche language often means interacting with its community. I don't mind if a couple of fans duke it out, but when somebody like Loris resorts to ad hominem attacks, that's pretty telling. Egos are getting in the way, they've lost sight of the goal and now it's just another content-free slapfest. It isn't a good look. If I report a bug in the language, is somebody important going to take it personally and flame me for it?
  - ptato 4y ago
    Nobody is going to take a bug report personally because it isn't the same as implying the project is pointless and even morally wrong whenever the opportunity arises.
    - klyrs 4y ago
      I've seen developers take bug reports personally quite a few times in my career, and the behavior Loris exhibited today is a very common precursor.
  - anonymoushn 4y ago
    I have found the Zig contributors to be quite reasonable when I have reported bugs and submitted patches.
    - klyrs 4y ago
      Me too! But, communities change, and this is one that I care about, because the language is frikkin awesome.
  - kristoff_it 4y ago
    For what it's worth, I only handle GH issues relative to the autodoc system. I can say with confidence that all Zig core contributors are nicer than me, although today this statement does sound less convincing than usual. I acted out, and I'm acknowledging the mistake. If you want to submit a bug report, make sure to follow the template and you will be treated well.
    - klyrs 4y ago
      I appreciate the humility here. For the record, I'm not immediately concerned about the Zig community; my comment above is more of an elaboration on why such behavior can be offputting.
      - kristoff_it 4y ago
        I think your point was fair. I don't intend to bend to every single outraged comment on social media, but my ultimate interest is to experience (and contribute to) the best that computer science has to offer. Humility is a small price to pay for that as otherwise it's impossible to recognize one's own mistakes.
sarlalian 4y ago
First, I’m not a zig user, or a zig community member so I don’t really care that much whether you use it or not. But it comes off as a bit immature to let a single person’s actions turn you off from an entire language. I’m sure it would be easy to find some shitty behavior from some individual in almost every community. There are dozens of examples in linux, in ruby, in python, in rust, etc. Open source communities are not homogenous, and they involve humans. People have bad days, people say things that aren’t well thought out, some times it takes a while for someone to come around to why what they said was hurtful, counter productive, etc. I don’t know the country of origin for this person, but some cultures have a much more direct and confrontational style of communication. Use the language or don’t, but if this is the reason you don’t, maybe spend some time reflecting on why a relatively unimportant interaction appears to have affected you so strongly.
- threatofrain 4y ago
  The reverse happens too. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/MINASWAN https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/MINASWAN Anyways, Loris Cro is not a random single person, he's more like the public face of the leadership team. For context, Loris is framing the greater conversation as punching back against Rust's dishonest marketing practices. Should this matter if you like to use the tool? Not for me. But I'm not going to be confused when people look at the PR smell and feel averted.
  - kristoff_it 4y ago
    That's a fair argument. I should be understandably held to higher standards than the average community member. I got into a heated discussion and fell into one of the common social media fallacies, ultimately acting in a distruptive way. As for the marketing debate, trying to manage expectations wrt to Zig is one of the main things that I do, and sometimes people do get too excited and imagine that the tool is able to do things that it ultimately cannot. Tampering that enthusiasm and trying to stay concrete is something that I try to do with great care. My impression is that when it comes to Rust, some of the arguments in extreme favor of rust (Rust protects you from everything) and also against Rust (Rust is useless because the compiler uses LLVM, which is C++) IMO both stem from mistakes in how the safety story is taught. That said, I'm saying this to provide context to my perspective, not as a justification to my outburst.
kristoff_it 4y ago
As I said in a few places, I do apologize for the outburst. Deleting the tweet is part of showing that I do mean to take back my words. As for the time delay, some of it is because it took me a bit to cool down, some of it is just that I wasn't checking on Twitter. One of my usual rants is that I keep Twitter notifications disabled and that the app keeps nagging me about it.
naikrovek 4y ago
> Hard not to be turned off of the Zig language after this kind of thing. can you explain that? I see this as one person (a person who is not the Zig language itself) having an opinion, being passionate about it, then realizing a mistake was made, and then learning from it and (very likely) becoming a better person for it? or are you really someone who thinks "Eric Clapton is super duper racist so it's hard not to be turned off of music entirely" I do what the person behind those tweets did very often, on this site, and every time I realize my mistake and become a better person because of what I learn.
- rtev 4y ago
  The Zig language community is small. I think it’s more comparable to “Eric Clapton is a valued member of the local music scene, so I’d rather not engage with that scene”. Not that he’s actually comparable to Eric Clapton, but yknow.

by rtev 4y ago

DangitBobby 4y ago

I don't understand how this could turn you off. Is it good? Is it useful? Use it. Who cares if some community rep guy is a perfect princess or a bit of an asshat.

j-pb 4y ago
This sentiment ignores, that programming, like everything, is a social endeavour.
- DangitBobby 4y ago
  You aren't really hanging out with the guy who wrote that tweet when you use zig. And it seems a bit hasty to extrapolate his behavior to be representative of the entire community, if you think that matters.
klyrs 4y ago
Using a niche language often means interacting with its community. I don't mind if a couple of fans duke it out, but when somebody like Loris resorts to ad hominem attacks, that's pretty telling. Egos are getting in the way, they've lost sight of the goal and now it's just another content-free slapfest. It isn't a good look. If I report a bug in the language, is somebody important going to take it personally and flame me for it?
- ptato 4y ago
  Nobody is going to take a bug report personally because it isn't the same as implying the project is pointless and even morally wrong whenever the opportunity arises.
  - klyrs 4y ago
    I've seen developers take bug reports personally quite a few times in my career, and the behavior Loris exhibited today is a very common precursor.
- anonymoushn 4y ago
  I have found the Zig contributors to be quite reasonable when I have reported bugs and submitted patches.
  - klyrs 4y ago
    Me too! But, communities change, and this is one that I care about, because the language is frikkin awesome.
- kristoff_it 4y ago
  For what it's worth, I only handle GH issues relative to the autodoc system. I can say with confidence that all Zig core contributors are nicer than me, although today this statement does sound less convincing than usual. I acted out, and I'm acknowledging the mistake. If you want to submit a bug report, make sure to follow the template and you will be treated well.
  - klyrs 4y ago
    I appreciate the humility here. For the record, I'm not immediately concerned about the Zig community; my comment above is more of an elaboration on why such behavior can be offputting.
    - kristoff_it 4y ago
      I think your point was fair. I don't intend to bend to every single outraged comment on social media, but my ultimate interest is to experience (and contribute to) the best that computer science has to offer. Humility is a small price to pay for that as otherwise it's impossible to recognize one's own mistakes.

sarlalian 4y ago

First, I’m not a zig user, or a zig community member so I don’t really care that much whether you use it or not. But it comes off as a bit immature to let a single person’s actions turn you off from an entire language. I’m sure it would be easy to find some shitty behavior from some individual in almost every community. There are dozens of examples in linux, in ruby, in python, in rust, etc. Open source communities are not homogenous, and they involve humans. People have bad days, people say things that aren’t well thought out, some times it takes a while for someone to come around to why what they said was hurtful, counter productive, etc. I don’t know the country of origin for this person, but some cultures have a much more direct and confrontational style of communication. Use the language or don’t, but if this is the reason you don’t, maybe spend some time reflecting on why a relatively unimportant interaction appears to have affected you so strongly.

threatofrain 4y ago
The reverse happens too. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/MINASWAN https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/MINASWAN Anyways, Loris Cro is not a random single person, he's more like the public face of the leadership team. For context, Loris is framing the greater conversation as punching back against Rust's dishonest marketing practices. Should this matter if you like to use the tool? Not for me. But I'm not going to be confused when people look at the PR smell and feel averted.
- kristoff_it 4y ago
  That's a fair argument. I should be understandably held to higher standards than the average community member. I got into a heated discussion and fell into one of the common social media fallacies, ultimately acting in a distruptive way. As for the marketing debate, trying to manage expectations wrt to Zig is one of the main things that I do, and sometimes people do get too excited and imagine that the tool is able to do things that it ultimately cannot. Tampering that enthusiasm and trying to stay concrete is something that I try to do with great care. My impression is that when it comes to Rust, some of the arguments in extreme favor of rust (Rust protects you from everything) and also against Rust (Rust is useless because the compiler uses LLVM, which is C++) IMO both stem from mistakes in how the safety story is taught. That said, I'm saying this to provide context to my perspective, not as a justification to my outburst.

kristoff_it 4y ago

As I said in a few places, I do apologize for the outburst. Deleting the tweet is part of showing that I do mean to take back my words. As for the time delay, some of it is because it took me a bit to cool down, some of it is just that I wasn't checking on Twitter. One of my usual rants is that I keep Twitter notifications disabled and that the app keeps nagging me about it.

naikrovek 4y ago

> Hard not to be turned off of the Zig language after this kind of thing. can you explain that? I see this as one person (a person who is not the Zig language itself) having an opinion, being passionate about it, then realizing a mistake was made, and then learning from it and (very likely) becoming a better person for it? or are you really someone who thinks "Eric Clapton is super duper racist so it's hard not to be turned off of music entirely" I do what the person behind those tweets did very often, on this site, and every time I realize my mistake and become a better person because of what I learn.

rtev 4y ago
The Zig language community is small. I think it’s more comparable to “Eric Clapton is a valued member of the local music scene, so I’d rather not engage with that scene”. Not that he’s actually comparable to Eric Clapton, but yknow.