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Worth noting that the post this is on a blog run by a professor who achieved success by selling a book on how to make your product addictive, [1] and after this

Worth noting that the post this is on a blog run by a professor who achieved success by selling a book on how to make your product addictive, [1] and after this became passé he wrote a second book on how individuals can resist the distractions of the products that use tricks like the ones he peddles in this first book. [2] I'm sure there is good and interesting science about the pros/cons of screens and social media, but I wouldn't turn to this fellow's blog to get an unbiased view. 1: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00LMGLXTS/ https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00LMGLXTS/ 2: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07PG2W6DC/ https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07PG2W6DC/

thenerdhead 4y ago
B.J. Fogg is an expert in behavior design and helped push humane tech of persuasive technology: https://www.humanetech.com/youth/persuasive-technology https://www.humanetech.com/youth/persuasive-technology
- network2592 4y ago
  B.J. Fogg is not necessarily someone to look up to in this area either. He followed a very similar flip flop trajectory and is frequently quoted in the post author's first book on how to get users addicted. Many of the students that were part of his lab went on to apply his behavior manipulation teachings [1] in leadership positions to engineer us into today's situation. Now, he is decrying the state of affairs he helped bring about. Pinches of salt recommended. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Mobile-Persuasion-Perspectives-Future-Behavior/dp/0979502527 https://www.amazon.com/Mobile-Persuasion-Perspectives-Future... https://www.sciencedirect.com/book/9781558606432/persuasive-technology https://www.sciencedirect.com/book/9781558606432/persuasive-...
  - fhfisdvg 4y ago
    Isn't this sort of like saying not to trust a burglar's opinions on home security because he's broken into so many homes?
    - network2592 4y ago
      Depends. Is the burglar still being primarily financed by fences when giving you advice on home security? Is the burglar still teaching at a school for aspiring burglars? Why is the burglar giving you advice about home security now? Is it to secure a reduced sentence plea deal?
  - thenerdhead 4y ago
    How do you get that impression? His 2003 work talks about his fascination of propaganda and how it might be unethical to persuade someone using technology for malicious purposes. He also has old lecture videos that give the same impression in a more academic-neutral light: https://vimeo.com/117427520 https://vimeo.com/117427520 It's been well over 20 years since his work started was published. That's a full generation to see the effects of technology and mainstream adoption while comparing it to your life's work. I think it's fair to see someone decry the state of affairs when they were already on that side of the fence. It's quite unfair to attribute his involvement as something malicious though. Behavior science itself is already an ethical dilemma. Maybe the 2007 book has something else in it, but I always got the opinion that famous founders simply attended the class and may/may not have used what they learned in it. Not that he was involved outside of it. But who knows who is in each other's pocket. I still like the guy as his message hasn't really changed.
    - network2592 4y ago
      Have you viewed the alumni of the B.J. Fogg Behavior Boot Camp? [1] Have you considered why people fork over a hefty sum to attend those bootcamps? What do you think their behavior design goals were? Simply echoing the OP comment for B.J. Fogg as well. Nothing more. His book Tiny Habits is a decent read actually. That does not however lend support to your initial unrepresentative statement about his work in persuasive technology. His sense of research ethics is beyond the scope of this thread. But since you brought up that dimension in your reply, you might want to consider the fact that he worked as an assistant [2] for Philip Zimbardo [3] who conducted the infamous Stanford Prison Experiment [4]. [1] https://www.linkedin.com/school/behaviordesign-bootcamp/people https://www.linkedin.com/school/behaviordesign-bootcamp/peop... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B._J._Fogg#Education https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B._J._Fogg#Education [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Zimbardo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Zimbardo [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment
HereIGoAgain 4y ago
I get what you are saying and all but.. wouldn't that kind of make him an expert on this if anything? Bias aside at least.
- gnicholas 4y ago
  A biased expert is perhaps worse than an unbiased non-expert. The expert knows where the bodies are buried, so to speak. He can make all the arguments for one side and frame an issue to favor his desired outcome. Even if he's not doing so maliciously, bias can lead someone to convince himself that he is right/righteous.

thenerdhead 4y ago

B.J. Fogg is an expert in behavior design and helped push humane tech of persuasive technology: https://www.humanetech.com/youth/persuasive-technology https://www.humanetech.com/youth/persuasive-technology

network2592 4y ago
B.J. Fogg is not necessarily someone to look up to in this area either. He followed a very similar flip flop trajectory and is frequently quoted in the post author's first book on how to get users addicted. Many of the students that were part of his lab went on to apply his behavior manipulation teachings [1] in leadership positions to engineer us into today's situation. Now, he is decrying the state of affairs he helped bring about. Pinches of salt recommended. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Mobile-Persuasion-Perspectives-Future-Behavior/dp/0979502527 https://www.amazon.com/Mobile-Persuasion-Perspectives-Future... https://www.sciencedirect.com/book/9781558606432/persuasive-technology https://www.sciencedirect.com/book/9781558606432/persuasive-...
- fhfisdvg 4y ago
  Isn't this sort of like saying not to trust a burglar's opinions on home security because he's broken into so many homes?
  - network2592 4y ago
    Depends. Is the burglar still being primarily financed by fences when giving you advice on home security? Is the burglar still teaching at a school for aspiring burglars? Why is the burglar giving you advice about home security now? Is it to secure a reduced sentence plea deal?
- thenerdhead 4y ago
  How do you get that impression? His 2003 work talks about his fascination of propaganda and how it might be unethical to persuade someone using technology for malicious purposes. He also has old lecture videos that give the same impression in a more academic-neutral light: https://vimeo.com/117427520 https://vimeo.com/117427520 It's been well over 20 years since his work started was published. That's a full generation to see the effects of technology and mainstream adoption while comparing it to your life's work. I think it's fair to see someone decry the state of affairs when they were already on that side of the fence. It's quite unfair to attribute his involvement as something malicious though. Behavior science itself is already an ethical dilemma. Maybe the 2007 book has something else in it, but I always got the opinion that famous founders simply attended the class and may/may not have used what they learned in it. Not that he was involved outside of it. But who knows who is in each other's pocket. I still like the guy as his message hasn't really changed.
  - network2592 4y ago
    Have you viewed the alumni of the B.J. Fogg Behavior Boot Camp? [1] Have you considered why people fork over a hefty sum to attend those bootcamps? What do you think their behavior design goals were? Simply echoing the OP comment for B.J. Fogg as well. Nothing more. His book Tiny Habits is a decent read actually. That does not however lend support to your initial unrepresentative statement about his work in persuasive technology. His sense of research ethics is beyond the scope of this thread. But since you brought up that dimension in your reply, you might want to consider the fact that he worked as an assistant [2] for Philip Zimbardo [3] who conducted the infamous Stanford Prison Experiment [4]. [1] https://www.linkedin.com/school/behaviordesign-bootcamp/people https://www.linkedin.com/school/behaviordesign-bootcamp/peop... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B._J._Fogg#Education https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B._J._Fogg#Education [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Zimbardo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Zimbardo [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

HereIGoAgain 4y ago

I get what you are saying and all but.. wouldn't that kind of make him an expert on this if anything? Bias aside at least.

gnicholas 4y ago
A biased expert is perhaps worse than an unbiased non-expert. The expert knows where the bodies are buried, so to speak. He can make all the arguments for one side and frame an issue to favor his desired outcome. Even if he's not doing so maliciously, bias can lead someone to convince himself that he is right/righteous.