3 ms·

>I found the law that this (Canadian) article is referencing, and the words "gay" or "homosexual" don't even appear in the text. You could try search for other

by slg 4y ago

>I found the law that this (Canadian) article is referencing, and the words "gay" or "homosexual" don't even appear in the text. You could try search for other words or phrases like sexual orientation? You will find passages like this: >Classroom instruction by school personnel or third parties on sexual orientation or gender identity may not occur in kindergarten through grade 3 or in a manner that is not age appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students in accordance with state standards. No one knows what those "state standards" are which creates a chilling effect around all discussions. Does this hypothetical conversation qualify? First Grader: What do you do over Christmas Mrs. Smith? Mrs. Smith: I went to visit my wife's family in Miami. First Grader: But you are a woman, how do you have a wife? Mrs. Smith: Not all women marry men. Some women marry other women.

remarkEon 4y ago
Yes that's the paragraph I was referring to, and seems to be the only one that's relevant to what you're saying. No one knows what the state standards are? They're all listed right here on their website[1]. Do you think your hypothetical conversation qualifies as "classroom instruction"? I don't think so. [1] http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Index&Title_Request=XLVIII#TitleXLVIII http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Displ...
- ModernMech 4y ago
  You don’t think so, but you and (most importantly) the teachers don’t know for sure. So they are self-censoring to be safe. The uncertainty is what creates a chilling effect. All it takes is some disgruntled parent hearing their kid talking about their teacher’s homosexual spouse to trigger a lawsuit, upending lives and careers.
- slg 4y ago
  >No one knows what the state standards are? They're all listed right here on their website[1]. Where are they listed on that website? I don't see them. Maybe the standards have been defined in the last few months, but they didn't exist at the time the bill was first proposed.
  - remarkEon 4y ago
    >TITLE XLVIII EARLY LEARNING-20 EDUCATION CODE Are you saying Florida had no education standards before this bill was passed?
    - slg 4y ago
      I'm not looking for their general education standards. I am looking for their education standards specifically on how to teach about "sexual orientation or gender identity" in an "age appropriate or developmentally appropriate" way because that is what the law we are discussing references.
      - remarkEon 4y ago
        Florida doesn’t spell out an exact curriculum at the state level for sex Ed, it’s explicitly left to local school districts to do that. All the law in question is saying is that when those rules are developed they still have to abide by those general standards referenced above. Seems like standard legalese and I don’t think it’s much more complicated than that.
        slg 4y ago
        >Florida doesn’t spell out an exact curriculum at the state level for sex Ed Another way to say that might be to say that no one knows what “in accordance with state standards” means because no state standards are defined. This comment is a great example of how to admit you are wrong without actually admitting you are wrong. Can you just admit that it is unclear to teachers what they can and can’t talk a about in terms of their family life for fear that it might be construed as instruction about sexual orientation or gender identity?
        remarkEon 4y ago
        Those are not the same things, and you’re either deliberately missing the point or insisting that something in the law exists when it doesn’t. There isn’t even a punishment attached to this language. I genuinely don’t understand how a law as simple as “can’t talk to kids about sex until third grade” has a bonafide conspiracy theory attached to it here. Is your worry that lots of gay teachers are talking about their home lives with very young children and now this law makes that, in your view, potentially out of bounds?
- 29083011397778 4y ago
  Do you think most kindergarden teachers have the money set aside to pay for time off (likely unpaid) and a lawyer to defend them in court from overzealous parents? And would you stake your career on that? Because that's the chilling effect that keeps getting brought up here. Will the lawsuit be thrown out? Maybe. Will you win? Probably. But finding out is a gamble that costs time, money, and stress, whether you win or lose.
  - remarkEon 4y ago
    How is any of this relevant? The danger of some overzealous parent misinterpreting something their 2nd grader says has always existed, which is why teachers go through extensive training. You're going from a law that essentially says "instruction on sex and sexual orientation starts in 3rd grade, not before" and inventing a scenario where teachers in Florida basically quit because the risk is too high.

by slg 4y ago

remarkEon 4y ago

Yes that's the paragraph I was referring to, and seems to be the only one that's relevant to what you're saying. No one knows what the state standards are? They're all listed right here on their website[1]. Do you think your hypothetical conversation qualifies as "classroom instruction"? I don't think so. [1] http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Index&Title_Request=XLVIII#TitleXLVIII http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Displ...

ModernMech 4y ago
You don’t think so, but you and (most importantly) the teachers don’t know for sure. So they are self-censoring to be safe. The uncertainty is what creates a chilling effect. All it takes is some disgruntled parent hearing their kid talking about their teacher’s homosexual spouse to trigger a lawsuit, upending lives and careers.
slg 4y ago
>No one knows what the state standards are? They're all listed right here on their website[1]. Where are they listed on that website? I don't see them. Maybe the standards have been defined in the last few months, but they didn't exist at the time the bill was first proposed.
- remarkEon 4y ago
  >TITLE XLVIII EARLY LEARNING-20 EDUCATION CODE Are you saying Florida had no education standards before this bill was passed?
  - slg 4y ago
    I'm not looking for their general education standards. I am looking for their education standards specifically on how to teach about "sexual orientation or gender identity" in an "age appropriate or developmentally appropriate" way because that is what the law we are discussing references.
    - remarkEon 4y ago
      Florida doesn’t spell out an exact curriculum at the state level for sex Ed, it’s explicitly left to local school districts to do that. All the law in question is saying is that when those rules are developed they still have to abide by those general standards referenced above. Seems like standard legalese and I don’t think it’s much more complicated than that.
      - slg 4y ago
        >Florida doesn’t spell out an exact curriculum at the state level for sex Ed Another way to say that might be to say that no one knows what “in accordance with state standards” means because no state standards are defined. This comment is a great example of how to admit you are wrong without actually admitting you are wrong. Can you just admit that it is unclear to teachers what they can and can’t talk a about in terms of their family life for fear that it might be construed as instruction about sexual orientation or gender identity?
        remarkEon 4y ago
        Those are not the same things, and you’re either deliberately missing the point or insisting that something in the law exists when it doesn’t. There isn’t even a punishment attached to this language. I genuinely don’t understand how a law as simple as “can’t talk to kids about sex until third grade” has a bonafide conspiracy theory attached to it here. Is your worry that lots of gay teachers are talking about their home lives with very young children and now this law makes that, in your view, potentially out of bounds?
29083011397778 4y ago
Do you think most kindergarden teachers have the money set aside to pay for time off (likely unpaid) and a lawyer to defend them in court from overzealous parents? And would you stake your career on that? Because that's the chilling effect that keeps getting brought up here. Will the lawsuit be thrown out? Maybe. Will you win? Probably. But finding out is a gamble that costs time, money, and stress, whether you win or lose.
- remarkEon 4y ago
  How is any of this relevant? The danger of some overzealous parent misinterpreting something their 2nd grader says has always existed, which is why teachers go through extensive training. You're going from a law that essentially says "instruction on sex and sexual orientation starts in 3rd grade, not before" and inventing a scenario where teachers in Florida basically quit because the risk is too high.