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> Capitalist exploitation of our natural resources is causing disasters and untold suffering all over the planet. And socialist/communist exploitation somehow

by hbrn 4y ago

> Capitalist exploitation of our natural resources is causing disasters and untold suffering all over the planet. And socialist/communist exploitation somehow has doesn't lead to the same consequences? Isn't China exploiting the same way? Wasn't USSR exploiting the same way? Just don't tell me those aren't true Scotsman. > sweat shop workers building the cheap junk we've gotten addicted to are committing suicide because they can't bear their conditions I asked for a metric, not for emotions. Same people were living beyond poverty and dying of hunger 100 years ago. Now a small fraction of those are committing suicide. Is it perfect? Of course not. Did it get drastically better in the last 100 years? Absolutely. Unlike socialism, capitalism doesn't pretend to be a utopia.

carmenSD 4y ago
Honestly pathos and emotions can guide us in my eye just as much as logos can. You cannot put a value on a singular human due to the unique ability to grow everlasting on a mental health level. To ignore the emotional component in this argument and asking for raw numerals in this case, does this really show cause for an argument of growth because the pathos argument is ignored in it of itself? That doesn't make any sense in my eye. Why use logos to defend mass slavery overseas for production of goods? Isn't that inherent to the actual problems with the capitalistic system? Aren't we as a race beyond Social Darwinism yet? Your logic I feel is showing cause for the emotional problems we have with capitalism and quite frankly I could care less about any singular country's GDP to begin with in this argument because every country has to help get our earth to net zero carbon by 2050 and quite frankly the world's nations are doing a piss poor job in this. Especially the United States. I find our current system of capitalism to be no better personally than an unbalanced video game that hasn't been patched in years and is needing serious re-balancing. But what do I know? I'm just another "emotional" human. Meanwhile every nation is equally responsible for the consequences on this on a scale that to me far exceeds "economics."
- hbrn 4y ago
  > Honestly pathos and emotions can guide us in my eye just as much as logos can. Emotions allow your biases to manifest, letting you focus on thousand suicides and turn a blind eye to famine for millions. And even feel virtuous while doing that. Utterly disgusting.
  - malermeister 4y ago
    You are turning a blind eye to hundreds of millions Bangladeshis with this very statement. Pot, meet kettle.
malermeister 4y ago
> Isn't China exploiting the same way? Wasn't USSR exploiting the same way? Neither of those are green, degrowth systems like the one described in the article. Sure, you can say no true Scotsman, but it's a fundamentally different framework. >I asked for a metric, not for emotions. Same people were living beyond poverty and dying of hunger 100 years ago. Now a small fraction of those are committing suicide. Do you have a metric for that? Because it's true that a lot of people were lifted out of poverty in the past 100 years. However, three quarters of that happened in China, which is explicitly not Capitalist. [0] To call this a triumph of Capitalism is cynical propaganda. > Did it get drastically better in the last 100 years? Absolutely. It did. But not because of Capitalism, despite it. The one country that made a difference self-defines as Socialist. [0] https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2022/04/01/lifting-800-million-people-out-of-poverty-new-report-looks-at-lessons-from-china-s-experience https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2022/04/01/l...
- hbrn 4y ago
  > But not because of Capitalism, despite it. The one country that made a difference self-defines as Socialist. You do realize that reforms that led to poverty reduction in China were deeply capitalistic? Allowing privatization, reducing state control over trade and pricing, reducing state ownership and central planning, opening up markets, allowing foreign investments, etc. How on earth those reforms were "despite capitalism"?

by hbrn 4y ago

carmenSD 4y ago

Honestly pathos and emotions can guide us in my eye just as much as logos can. You cannot put a value on a singular human due to the unique ability to grow everlasting on a mental health level. To ignore the emotional component in this argument and asking for raw numerals in this case, does this really show cause for an argument of growth because the pathos argument is ignored in it of itself? That doesn't make any sense in my eye. Why use logos to defend mass slavery overseas for production of goods? Isn't that inherent to the actual problems with the capitalistic system? Aren't we as a race beyond Social Darwinism yet? Your logic I feel is showing cause for the emotional problems we have with capitalism and quite frankly I could care less about any singular country's GDP to begin with in this argument because every country has to help get our earth to net zero carbon by 2050 and quite frankly the world's nations are doing a piss poor job in this. Especially the United States. I find our current system of capitalism to be no better personally than an unbalanced video game that hasn't been patched in years and is needing serious re-balancing. But what do I know? I'm just another "emotional" human. Meanwhile every nation is equally responsible for the consequences on this on a scale that to me far exceeds "economics."

hbrn 4y ago
> Honestly pathos and emotions can guide us in my eye just as much as logos can. Emotions allow your biases to manifest, letting you focus on thousand suicides and turn a blind eye to famine for millions. And even feel virtuous while doing that. Utterly disgusting.
- malermeister 4y ago
  You are turning a blind eye to hundreds of millions Bangladeshis with this very statement. Pot, meet kettle.

malermeister 4y ago

> Isn't China exploiting the same way? Wasn't USSR exploiting the same way? Neither of those are green, degrowth systems like the one described in the article. Sure, you can say no true Scotsman, but it's a fundamentally different framework. >I asked for a metric, not for emotions. Same people were living beyond poverty and dying of hunger 100 years ago. Now a small fraction of those are committing suicide. Do you have a metric for that? Because it's true that a lot of people were lifted out of poverty in the past 100 years. However, three quarters of that happened in China, which is explicitly not Capitalist. [0] To call this a triumph of Capitalism is cynical propaganda. > Did it get drastically better in the last 100 years? Absolutely. It did. But not because of Capitalism, despite it. The one country that made a difference self-defines as Socialist. [0] https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2022/04/01/lifting-800-million-people-out-of-poverty-new-report-looks-at-lessons-from-china-s-experience https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2022/04/01/l...

hbrn 4y ago
> But not because of Capitalism, despite it. The one country that made a difference self-defines as Socialist. You do realize that reforms that led to poverty reduction in China were deeply capitalistic? Allowing privatization, reducing state control over trade and pricing, reducing state ownership and central planning, opening up markets, allowing foreign investments, etc. How on earth those reforms were "despite capitalism"?