4 ms·

What a horrible irony this would be if true: Lisp used to enslave generations of programmers with JavaScript.

tikhonj 15y ago
Come, JavaScript isn't that bad: it's probably one of the most pleasant of the popular languages; it's just unpolished and has some stupid bits.
- DiabloD3 15y ago
  I suspect you just described almost every language ever.
  - astine 15y ago
    Let's take the empirical approach: "Come, BrainFk isn't that bad: it's probably one of the most pleasant of the popular languages; it's just unpolished and has some stupid bits." Nope, guess not.
    - DiabloD3 15y ago
      Let me rephrase, "almost every language that is close to or has met its peak popularity"
  - tikhonj 15y ago
    Let me rephrase it then: fundamentally, JavaScript is sound. It's like a nice city with a couple of bad neighborhoods you can usually avoid. Other languages have much more pervasive bad features, and yet others are fundamentally unsound. JavaScript is fine.
    - jronkone 15y ago
      Saying that "Javascript is fundamentally sound" is like saying "McDonalds serves fundamentally nutritious food". It's technically true, but ignores completely what people actually mean when they use the phrases like "fundamentally sound".
- tree_of_item 15y ago
  Isn't that bad compared to...the language it was supposedly implemented in? Yes, yes it is that bad.
  - tikhonj 15y ago
    I'm not saying JavaScript isn't worse than Lisp: I just think that describing it as "enslaving generations of programmers" is a bit much.
bitcracker 15y ago
Enslaved? This word reminds me of C, C++, Java, C#, ... :-) It's funny that all these modern languages have copied - and are still copying - features which Lisp had for decades. I know really many programming languages but the power of Lisp is still superior. I can express myself in much less code than in all other modern languages. Python is an exception but that's no surprise because Python is just a subset of Lisp with a modern syntax and clean API. Regarding Javascript, I think it will be the top language of the coming decade because it offers everything the average programmer needs: easy syntax, many APIs and even speed (Google V8 etc.). Even Microsoft supports Javascript. I also believe that many of the other languages will provide backends for Javascript soon.
- hello_moto 15y ago
  I heard this a lot: Modern languages copying features that Lisp had for decades Lisp is still superior Can write less code in Lisp Ok. Gotcha. Now, I'd like to build a web-app with some storage backend (mixed of RDBMS and NoSQL). Can do REST API. Requires web-service integration. Will perform nightly batch computation using Hadoop. Would like to have automation test and continuous integration. Before Clojure, how can I do all of these with less code using LISP? PS: I'm still unsure how pure Clojure can help me as well seeing that now suddenly I required a Java object with JAXB annotation and probably require JAX-WS client API to do web services, etc.
  - sbryant 15y ago
    RDBMS - CLSQL it does everything. NoSQL - Whatever you want. Cl-mongo exists. There's even CLOS object stores for when you really want object persistence. REST - This isn't really a language thing. Web- UnCommon Web, Huchentoot, Weblocks. You can even write your javascript in parenscript and be lisp all the way down. If you want to know how LISP can do all of this and more please read Practical Common Lisp. http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ Just keep in mind that the book is a few years old now. I would also like to ask why you think it's not possible to do any of the things you've asked of in any language?
    - 15y ago

Come, JavaScript isn't that bad: it's probably one of the most pleasant of the popular languages; it's just unpolished and has some stupid bits.

DiabloD3 15y ago
I suspect you just described almost every language ever.
- astine 15y ago
  Let's take the empirical approach: "Come, BrainFk isn't that bad: it's probably one of the most pleasant of the popular languages; it's just unpolished and has some stupid bits." Nope, guess not.
  - DiabloD3 15y ago
    Let me rephrase, "almost every language that is close to or has met its peak popularity"
- tikhonj 15y ago
  Let me rephrase it then: fundamentally, JavaScript is sound. It's like a nice city with a couple of bad neighborhoods you can usually avoid. Other languages have much more pervasive bad features, and yet others are fundamentally unsound. JavaScript is fine.
  - jronkone 15y ago
    Saying that "Javascript is fundamentally sound" is like saying "McDonalds serves fundamentally nutritious food". It's technically true, but ignores completely what people actually mean when they use the phrases like "fundamentally sound".
tree_of_item 15y ago
Isn't that bad compared to...the language it was supposedly implemented in? Yes, yes it is that bad.
- tikhonj 15y ago
  I'm not saying JavaScript isn't worse than Lisp: I just think that describing it as "enslaving generations of programmers" is a bit much.

bitcracker 15y ago

Enslaved? This word reminds me of C, C++, Java, C#, ... :-) It's funny that all these modern languages have copied - and are still copying - features which Lisp had for decades. I know really many programming languages but the power of Lisp is still superior. I can express myself in much less code than in all other modern languages. Python is an exception but that's no surprise because Python is just a subset of Lisp with a modern syntax and clean API. Regarding Javascript, I think it will be the top language of the coming decade because it offers everything the average programmer needs: easy syntax, many APIs and even speed (Google V8 etc.). Even Microsoft supports Javascript. I also believe that many of the other languages will provide backends for Javascript soon.

hello_moto 15y ago
I heard this a lot: Modern languages copying features that Lisp had for decades Lisp is still superior Can write less code in Lisp Ok. Gotcha. Now, I'd like to build a web-app with some storage backend (mixed of RDBMS and NoSQL). Can do REST API. Requires web-service integration. Will perform nightly batch computation using Hadoop. Would like to have automation test and continuous integration. Before Clojure, how can I do all of these with less code using LISP? PS: I'm still unsure how pure Clojure can help me as well seeing that now suddenly I required a Java object with JAXB annotation and probably require JAX-WS client API to do web services, etc.
- sbryant 15y ago
  RDBMS - CLSQL it does everything. NoSQL - Whatever you want. Cl-mongo exists. There's even CLOS object stores for when you really want object persistence. REST - This isn't really a language thing. Web- UnCommon Web, Huchentoot, Weblocks. You can even write your javascript in parenscript and be lisp all the way down. If you want to know how LISP can do all of this and more please read Practical Common Lisp. http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ Just keep in mind that the book is a few years old now. I would also like to ask why you think it's not possible to do any of the things you've asked of in any language?
  - 15y ago