7 ms·

Everyone is jumping on the bank for not staying up to date with the frequent and massive chanages that Apple makes. But this is only a news story because it is

Everyone is jumping on the bank for not staying up to date with the frequent and massive chanages that Apple makes. But this is only a news story because it is a bank, this scenario happens constantly to a large fraction of all iOS software. The problem here is that modern libs and standards change so fast (similar to JS) that it really is hard for anyone without a megacorp's worth of software dev employees to keep up. This isn't just this bank. This is many. And this is future shock.

dangus 4y ago
I would criticize the bank for suggesting to non-technical customers to disable automatic updates. I think that’s a major security issue for the average person. Companies like this act like their services are special and that customers should bend over backwards to accommodate their own shortcomings.
scarface74 4y ago
Marco Arment (Overcast) and David Smith (slew of apps) would argue differently https://marco.org/apps https://marco.org/apps http://david-smith.org/apps http://david-smith.org/apps
- noirbot 4y ago
  Marco did have a pretty massive rant this year about how terrible the beta process was and how he was getting told that bugs filed in July were "too late" to be fixed. It's certainly not a friendly process for small devs, but OP is definitely overstating how hard it is.
ajaimk 4y ago
They've had 3 months to test the new iOS software. That's the whole purpose of WWDC in June and new OS coming out in September
- svnpenn 4y ago
  oh really? Three whole months? Shame on them /s
  - skimo8 4y ago
    To be fair, iOS version increments usually aren’t rocket science if you don’t want to take advantage of all the new features right away.
  - noirbot 4y ago
    That's been how it's been for years now. Every year. I'm sympathetic to the argument that that's not enough time, but if your company has a mobile app on iOS and you're not planning to do this work every summer in time for the September release then it's a pretty major failure of planning.
    - KerrAvon 4y ago
      If you need to do months of work every summer to keep up with iOS updates you need to look at what you’re doing wrong, unless you’re simply adopting new features every time. Things should generally just work. Apple doesn’t usually break well-behaved apps (usually).
      - noirbot 4y ago
        For sure, but you at least need to plan to maybe have work to do. Either to proactively support new features/devices or any necessary updates. If you're hitting September and your app is still broken, something has gone wrong.
      - noahtallen 4y ago
        You just need to plan to test your apps every Summer. And maybe extra time for implementing new platform features, like log-in with Apple and whatnot. But it’s still a yearly routine!
  - KerrAvon 4y ago
    Why the /s? Three months is a _very_ long time in software. This isn’t retooling physical metal for a new car model year; it’s minor software tweaks at best. Most developers don’t actually need to do anything.
- makeitdouble 4y ago
  I don’t think it’s crazy for any company to want more than 3 months to support a new OS. This specific situation is unfortunate, but I’d expect many other companies to have a mildly broken app for a few months. In particular, the punch hole gimmick was kept a secret and I’d expect apps who expected no touch target in that area to have to rethink a bunch of assumptions.
  - adolph 4y ago
    Out of ignorance I ask: Why aren’t there LTS versions of iOS? As a long time iOS user each year brings a bit of change with improvements just barely better than regression. Under the hood, what changes so much as to consider it a major upgrade with breaking changes? The MS pattern of deep support of legacy API for applications seems too extreme in the other direction. However iOS has long sense reached a point of maturity where annual breakage is also an extreme.
    - Bilal_io 4y ago
      > LTS versions of iOS I think that would be cool for users that want security and don't want the new features or new design.. But it'll be used as an excuse for certain apps to not keep their up to date with the newest APIs. As for the company, they often use the OS version to drive more sales. The new OS almost always requires a little bit more performant hardware. The older the phone, the slower it gets with the newer OS.
    - scarface74 4y ago
      There is, once your phone can’t support the latest version of iOS, you are de facto on the LTS version where Apple will provide security patches as needed for years. iOS 12 just got a security patch for the iPhone 5s (circa 2013) last month. How does it benefit consumers, developers, or Apple to support older OS’s on phones that can support the newest version?
      - adolph 4y ago
        If value of new features is less than lost value in regression then a change doesn’t benefit consumers. For example, I wish that they didn’t support OG SE on 15 since there were goose-egg OS level improvements and giant regression in battery with 15.6.
joshmanders 4y ago
> The problem here is that modern libs and standards change so fast (similar to JS) that it really is hard for anyone without a megacorp's worth of software dev employees to keep up. Are you so sure of this? I have apps that haven't been updated in years that still run on my iPhone 13 Pro Max using latest iOS.
- kitsunesoba 4y ago
  As an iOS dev of 7 years, year to year changes are generally mild and impact is generally low, particularly if your app is built with UIKit. For the past 4-5 releases the worst I’ve seen in the apps I’m responsible are a small number of minor non-breaking quirks… think things like a button rendering slightly oddly. It’s never been beyond what a single dev could handle. Android on the other hand…
  - ramesh31 4y ago
    >Android on the other hand… Yeah. Hence why Kotlin is a dead end and React Native is more or less the new standard.
- Bilal_io 4y ago
  I am not an iOS dev, but is it possible that banking apps (and I admit they're slow at adapting) depend on certain APIs that have changed, or Apple deciding to enforce a use of a specific API for a specific type of apps? I am asking to learn.
  - noahtallen 4y ago
    It’s definitely possible. But iOS deprecated APIs, iirc, it doesn’t just delete them. (At least that’s what I remember from iOS dev four years ago.) I conjecture that the bank didn’t bother to test the app on a new version of iOS until this week, found a major bug, and knew they couldn’t fix it fast enough. But they could have tested three months ago when the beta came out, and any major issues (like using an old API) probably would have occurred then.
Gigachad 4y ago
Apple releases an update once a year and they give several months of betas where app devs can test and prepare. That’s more than enough for supported apps.
- TheCoelacanth 4y ago
  Still pretty embarrassing when Microsoft maintains backwards compatibility for decades.
  - K7PJP 4y ago
    Not embarrassing, its a deliberate strategy to keep the platform moving forward.
    - exodust 4y ago
      Backwards comparability doesn't prevent forward movement. Moving forward is an overused tagline from every meeting ever anyway. If we move along a path does the path behind us crumble into the abyss? I see this as Apple breaking the app. Demanding and nudging users to auto-update the iOS, the consequences being the OS fails to run what it previously could run.
      - scarface74 4y ago
        Apple literally removed chunks of the processor that was needed to run 32 bit software to make room for more forward looking features. Backwards compatibility would mean that MacOS should still have support for 32 bit apps? PPC apps? 68K apps? Should they have ported Carbon to 64 bits? Should they have kept support for QuickDraw from the 80s? QuickDraw GX from the 90s?
        exodust 4y ago
        A smartphone that fails to run a banking app that worked literally "yesterday" is not the same as 32bit deaktop apps no longer working on 64bit systems. Either way, I expect my PC to be capable of running old software including 32 bit apps. My 64bit Windoze machine does that. > removed chunks of the processor Did users petition for the chunks to be removed? It's not like 32/64 bit applications are equivalent to VHS/DVD, where hardware is obviously different. But even then, I own this DVD/VHS combo player: https://www.lg.com/au/dvd-blu-ray-players/lg-RC689D https://www.lg.com/au/dvd-blu-ray-players/lg-RC689D
Beltalowda 4y ago
It's hard to really make a judgement one way or the other without knowing the technical and organisational reasons in the first place. Maybe their iOS dev left a few months ago and there are large changes needed they haven't been able to pull off in time? Maybe there's a very specific issue/bug they're having trouble to work around? Maybe they actually did make an update but it got rejected in the (in)famous "Apple approval process"? Something else? Who knows...
- jen20 4y ago
  Whether or not a company can get apps updated in a reasonable window - or whether a bank having “an iOS dev” is reasonable, or not, it is simply unforgivable to suggest that people turn off operating system upgrades.
- KerrAvon 4y ago
  The reasons are interesting on a human level, but on a professional basis they should have had a plan months ago.
  - Beltalowda 4y ago
    Maybe the did have a plan but something went wrong at the last minute; or maybe not and they just messed up. We don't really know that.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
altairprime 4y ago
The iOS betas have been available to the bank for three months prior to the public release, every year since they first signed up for a developer account. If this is their first year dealing with an iOS update, they have my sympathies. If the bank has spent the past 90 days trying and failing to make their app work, they have my sympathies. If this is not their first year, and they chose not to bother testing their app until the release candidate was issued this week, they do not have my sympathies.

dangus 4y ago

I would criticize the bank for suggesting to non-technical customers to disable automatic updates. I think that’s a major security issue for the average person. Companies like this act like their services are special and that customers should bend over backwards to accommodate their own shortcomings.

scarface74 4y ago

Marco Arment (Overcast) and David Smith (slew of apps) would argue differently https://marco.org/apps https://marco.org/apps http://david-smith.org/apps http://david-smith.org/apps

noirbot 4y ago
Marco did have a pretty massive rant this year about how terrible the beta process was and how he was getting told that bugs filed in July were "too late" to be fixed. It's certainly not a friendly process for small devs, but OP is definitely overstating how hard it is.

ajaimk 4y ago

They've had 3 months to test the new iOS software. That's the whole purpose of WWDC in June and new OS coming out in September

svnpenn 4y ago
oh really? Three whole months? Shame on them /s
- skimo8 4y ago
  To be fair, iOS version increments usually aren’t rocket science if you don’t want to take advantage of all the new features right away.
- noirbot 4y ago
  That's been how it's been for years now. Every year. I'm sympathetic to the argument that that's not enough time, but if your company has a mobile app on iOS and you're not planning to do this work every summer in time for the September release then it's a pretty major failure of planning.
  - KerrAvon 4y ago
    If you need to do months of work every summer to keep up with iOS updates you need to look at what you’re doing wrong, unless you’re simply adopting new features every time. Things should generally just work. Apple doesn’t usually break well-behaved apps (usually).
    - noirbot 4y ago
      For sure, but you at least need to plan to maybe have work to do. Either to proactively support new features/devices or any necessary updates. If you're hitting September and your app is still broken, something has gone wrong.
    - noahtallen 4y ago
      You just need to plan to test your apps every Summer. And maybe extra time for implementing new platform features, like log-in with Apple and whatnot. But it’s still a yearly routine!
- KerrAvon 4y ago
  Why the /s? Three months is a _very_ long time in software. This isn’t retooling physical metal for a new car model year; it’s minor software tweaks at best. Most developers don’t actually need to do anything.
makeitdouble 4y ago
I don’t think it’s crazy for any company to want more than 3 months to support a new OS. This specific situation is unfortunate, but I’d expect many other companies to have a mildly broken app for a few months. In particular, the punch hole gimmick was kept a secret and I’d expect apps who expected no touch target in that area to have to rethink a bunch of assumptions.
- adolph 4y ago
  Out of ignorance I ask: Why aren’t there LTS versions of iOS? As a long time iOS user each year brings a bit of change with improvements just barely better than regression. Under the hood, what changes so much as to consider it a major upgrade with breaking changes? The MS pattern of deep support of legacy API for applications seems too extreme in the other direction. However iOS has long sense reached a point of maturity where annual breakage is also an extreme.
  - Bilal_io 4y ago
    > LTS versions of iOS I think that would be cool for users that want security and don't want the new features or new design.. But it'll be used as an excuse for certain apps to not keep their up to date with the newest APIs. As for the company, they often use the OS version to drive more sales. The new OS almost always requires a little bit more performant hardware. The older the phone, the slower it gets with the newer OS.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    There is, once your phone can’t support the latest version of iOS, you are de facto on the LTS version where Apple will provide security patches as needed for years. iOS 12 just got a security patch for the iPhone 5s (circa 2013) last month. How does it benefit consumers, developers, or Apple to support older OS’s on phones that can support the newest version?
    - adolph 4y ago
      If value of new features is less than lost value in regression then a change doesn’t benefit consumers. For example, I wish that they didn’t support OG SE on 15 since there were goose-egg OS level improvements and giant regression in battery with 15.6.

joshmanders 4y ago

> The problem here is that modern libs and standards change so fast (similar to JS) that it really is hard for anyone without a megacorp's worth of software dev employees to keep up. Are you so sure of this? I have apps that haven't been updated in years that still run on my iPhone 13 Pro Max using latest iOS.

kitsunesoba 4y ago
As an iOS dev of 7 years, year to year changes are generally mild and impact is generally low, particularly if your app is built with UIKit. For the past 4-5 releases the worst I’ve seen in the apps I’m responsible are a small number of minor non-breaking quirks… think things like a button rendering slightly oddly. It’s never been beyond what a single dev could handle. Android on the other hand…
- ramesh31 4y ago
  >Android on the other hand… Yeah. Hence why Kotlin is a dead end and React Native is more or less the new standard.
Bilal_io 4y ago
I am not an iOS dev, but is it possible that banking apps (and I admit they're slow at adapting) depend on certain APIs that have changed, or Apple deciding to enforce a use of a specific API for a specific type of apps? I am asking to learn.
- noahtallen 4y ago
  It’s definitely possible. But iOS deprecated APIs, iirc, it doesn’t just delete them. (At least that’s what I remember from iOS dev four years ago.) I conjecture that the bank didn’t bother to test the app on a new version of iOS until this week, found a major bug, and knew they couldn’t fix it fast enough. But they could have tested three months ago when the beta came out, and any major issues (like using an old API) probably would have occurred then.

Gigachad 4y ago

Apple releases an update once a year and they give several months of betas where app devs can test and prepare. That’s more than enough for supported apps.

TheCoelacanth 4y ago
Still pretty embarrassing when Microsoft maintains backwards compatibility for decades.
- K7PJP 4y ago
  Not embarrassing, its a deliberate strategy to keep the platform moving forward.
  - exodust 4y ago
    Backwards comparability doesn't prevent forward movement. Moving forward is an overused tagline from every meeting ever anyway. If we move along a path does the path behind us crumble into the abyss? I see this as Apple breaking the app. Demanding and nudging users to auto-update the iOS, the consequences being the OS fails to run what it previously could run.
    - scarface74 4y ago
      Apple literally removed chunks of the processor that was needed to run 32 bit software to make room for more forward looking features. Backwards compatibility would mean that MacOS should still have support for 32 bit apps? PPC apps? 68K apps? Should they have ported Carbon to 64 bits? Should they have kept support for QuickDraw from the 80s? QuickDraw GX from the 90s?
      - exodust 4y ago
        A smartphone that fails to run a banking app that worked literally "yesterday" is not the same as 32bit deaktop apps no longer working on 64bit systems. Either way, I expect my PC to be capable of running old software including 32 bit apps. My 64bit Windoze machine does that. > removed chunks of the processor Did users petition for the chunks to be removed? It's not like 32/64 bit applications are equivalent to VHS/DVD, where hardware is obviously different. But even then, I own this DVD/VHS combo player: https://www.lg.com/au/dvd-blu-ray-players/lg-RC689D https://www.lg.com/au/dvd-blu-ray-players/lg-RC689D

Beltalowda 4y ago

It's hard to really make a judgement one way or the other without knowing the technical and organisational reasons in the first place. Maybe their iOS dev left a few months ago and there are large changes needed they haven't been able to pull off in time? Maybe there's a very specific issue/bug they're having trouble to work around? Maybe they actually did make an update but it got rejected in the (in)famous "Apple approval process"? Something else? Who knows...

jen20 4y ago
Whether or not a company can get apps updated in a reasonable window - or whether a bank having “an iOS dev” is reasonable, or not, it is simply unforgivable to suggest that people turn off operating system upgrades.
KerrAvon 4y ago
The reasons are interesting on a human level, but on a professional basis they should have had a plan months ago.
- Beltalowda 4y ago
  Maybe the did have a plan but something went wrong at the last minute; or maybe not and they just messed up. We don't really know that.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

altairprime 4y ago

The iOS betas have been available to the bank for three months prior to the public release, every year since they first signed up for a developer account. If this is their first year dealing with an iOS update, they have my sympathies. If the bank has spent the past 90 days trying and failing to make their app work, they have my sympathies. If this is not their first year, and they chose not to bother testing their app until the release candidate was issued this week, they do not have my sympathies.