2 ms·

I think the comments here will be a mix of Europeans who have relatively good unions and experiences, and Americans who (recently) have history of pretty bad un

by gedy 4y ago

I think the comments here will be a mix of Europeans who have relatively good unions and experiences, and Americans who (recently) have history of pretty bad unions. Really difficult to discuss this without differentiating this.

socialismisok 4y ago
I'm American, staunchly pro union. I think tech workers should be unionizing now to protect some of the power they currently hold. They should be fighting for things like: paid overtime or paid oncall, ip rights for side projects, smoothing off the four year cliff, better parental leave (at least ät Amazon), more transparency in performance reviews, etc.
- UncleMeat 4y ago
  Yep. People often say "but things are so good and employees have so much power to demand good things, so why should we have a union" when this is precisely the time to get all of those good things actually set in stone. When the market is bad and labor has less power it is harder to achieve anything.
- nemo44x 4y ago
  The only power tech workers hold today is that their is huge demand for their skills and limited people that can fulfill that demand locally. So contributors are paid $200k+ in many markets and a comfortable 6-figures in others. In effect tech workers control the means of production because computers are commodities and their knowledge is the means of production. Because if this their share of the putouts are enormous compared to most industries. It’s why besides massive checks we are granted RSUs to ISOs, generous time off and parental leave, free healthcare, etc. The power tech workers have won’t change until there is a larger supply than there is demand. At that point your union is useless since scabs will be hired globally and there’s no picket line to cross.
  - socialismisok 4y ago
    It's not so black and white. Already Google, Facebook, Amazon, etc are tightening their purse strings, looking for places they can squeeze gains out from their employees pockets. Also, we can use our strength to build solidarity for the workers who aren't tech. From cafeteria staff to business to sales to security... We can use our bargaining position to improve conditions for every worker.
    - nemo44x 4y ago
      > Also, we can use our strength to build solidarity for the workers who aren't tech. So now you’re describing a political movement/organization. This is like having commissars (or today a DEI Officer) present. I’m not concerned with that and am strictly concerned with access to the outputs and control of the means of production for myself. I can vote to support codified workers rights, higher wages, etc. but I’m not interested in bringing other peoples political beliefs into our shared office space and culture. That crosses boundaries. Activism in the workplace needs to be eliminated as it’s cancer.
      - socialismisok 4y ago
        I'm not. I'm saying it's in our interest to make sure the people we work beside in our buildings are also taken care of. Ignoring your hyperbole, think about the benefits to you when the staff in your building, working to support you, are well cared for. Ample sick time means cafe workers don't feel compelled to come in on days when they have a cold, decent wages ensure cleaning staff have the ability to commute easily, competitive sales commissions ensure you have the best sales staff and your profits rise, healthcare ensures there's less turnover for the roles who you rely on to keep things moving smoothly. You don't have to buy into the argument that, "these are all people and should be treated well because they are people" if you don't want to. But there are rational, apolitical, self interested reasons to use your labor power to help others.
pessimizer 4y ago
> Americans who (recently) have history of pretty bad unions. Americans don't have a history of bad unions, they have a history of unions being gradually eliminated (along with rising wages and improving working conditions), and are exposed to constant anti-union propaganda. 15% tops of the workforce is unionized, 98% of the people who complain about unions either have absolutely no experience of them, or their experience of them consists entirely of stories that their reactionary grandfather used to tell them about the lazy bum they couldn't fire.

by gedy 4y ago

socialismisok 4y ago

I'm American, staunchly pro union. I think tech workers should be unionizing now to protect some of the power they currently hold. They should be fighting for things like: paid overtime or paid oncall, ip rights for side projects, smoothing off the four year cliff, better parental leave (at least ät Amazon), more transparency in performance reviews, etc.

UncleMeat 4y ago
Yep. People often say "but things are so good and employees have so much power to demand good things, so why should we have a union" when this is precisely the time to get all of those good things actually set in stone. When the market is bad and labor has less power it is harder to achieve anything.
nemo44x 4y ago
The only power tech workers hold today is that their is huge demand for their skills and limited people that can fulfill that demand locally. So contributors are paid $200k+ in many markets and a comfortable 6-figures in others. In effect tech workers control the means of production because computers are commodities and their knowledge is the means of production. Because if this their share of the putouts are enormous compared to most industries. It’s why besides massive checks we are granted RSUs to ISOs, generous time off and parental leave, free healthcare, etc. The power tech workers have won’t change until there is a larger supply than there is demand. At that point your union is useless since scabs will be hired globally and there’s no picket line to cross.
- socialismisok 4y ago
  It's not so black and white. Already Google, Facebook, Amazon, etc are tightening their purse strings, looking for places they can squeeze gains out from their employees pockets. Also, we can use our strength to build solidarity for the workers who aren't tech. From cafeteria staff to business to sales to security... We can use our bargaining position to improve conditions for every worker.
  - nemo44x 4y ago
    > Also, we can use our strength to build solidarity for the workers who aren't tech. So now you’re describing a political movement/organization. This is like having commissars (or today a DEI Officer) present. I’m not concerned with that and am strictly concerned with access to the outputs and control of the means of production for myself. I can vote to support codified workers rights, higher wages, etc. but I’m not interested in bringing other peoples political beliefs into our shared office space and culture. That crosses boundaries. Activism in the workplace needs to be eliminated as it’s cancer.
    - socialismisok 4y ago
      I'm not. I'm saying it's in our interest to make sure the people we work beside in our buildings are also taken care of. Ignoring your hyperbole, think about the benefits to you when the staff in your building, working to support you, are well cared for. Ample sick time means cafe workers don't feel compelled to come in on days when they have a cold, decent wages ensure cleaning staff have the ability to commute easily, competitive sales commissions ensure you have the best sales staff and your profits rise, healthcare ensures there's less turnover for the roles who you rely on to keep things moving smoothly. You don't have to buy into the argument that, "these are all people and should be treated well because they are people" if you don't want to. But there are rational, apolitical, self interested reasons to use your labor power to help others.

pessimizer 4y ago

> Americans who (recently) have history of pretty bad unions. Americans don't have a history of bad unions, they have a history of unions being gradually eliminated (along with rising wages and improving working conditions), and are exposed to constant anti-union propaganda. 15% tops of the workforce is unionized, 98% of the people who complain about unions either have absolutely no experience of them, or their experience of them consists entirely of stories that their reactionary grandfather used to tell them about the lazy bum they couldn't fire.