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About Tech Worker Unions Pt 2 – I Would Never Know [audio]
- throwayyy479087 4y agoI would absolutely never work in a union shop. The romanticizing of unions by tech workers is hilarious to me and shows how privileged and detached we are from real labor. Construction unions etc are hyper corrupt and reward tenure over effort. I can’t imagine what a union would do with Google money.
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- seibelj 4y agoIf the tech industry was unionized like the trades: "Sorry, I can't merge this pull request, these config files are managed by the DevOps union and only they can review this code." "I know the system is down and our customers are failing, but we don't work weekends." "I can't give you a raise because you are maxed out for your 4 years of time put in here. Everyone with 4 years time gets paid exactly the same rate." "Sorry you are getting laid off - these other (less skilled) people have more time here than you. We lay off based on seniority."
- notriddle 4y agoMost of those problems already exist. The working-weekends one is the result of mismanagement.
- ydlr 4y agoBecause tech industry is not unionized: "I know we hired you to work in R&D, but are now being assigned to ads." "We need to meet a completely arbitrary deadline so that I can increase my yearly bonus, so you are working this weekend. Isn't it great that programmers are exempt from overtime pay?" "I can't give you a raise because our promotion matrix, developed without any worker input, says you do not meet the requirements. It is a completely objective system based on scores your managers have given you. No, you can not know how those scores are arrived at." "Sorry you are getting laid off. Because a black box machine-learning algorithm chose you."
- capitalsigma 4y agoIf you have the skills, get a different job. If you don't have the skills, why should my paycheck go towards propping you up?
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- azemetre 4y agoBecause collective bargaining against multinational corporations is the only leverage you have. Unless you happen to be one of the 15 or so people on earth that are literal programming gods... then yes you do have exquisite leverage.
- capitalsigma 4y agoMy leverage is getting a different job. If that's not enough to get what I want, that's too bad for me: looks like it's in everyone's interest for me to leave -- I get to go to a company that's better suited to my interest, and my company gets to hire someone that's better suited to their interests. If my company is as bad as I think it is, then all of the good SWEs will leave and they'll go out of business. If it doesn't go out of business, then it looks like I was wrong about how bad it is. I also shudder to think of the painful position it would put the R&D team in if they had to bargain with a union every time they got a new transfer that doesn't work out: someone escalates to a manager and it gets communicated to the transfer as "hey buddy, we think it might be better if you spend some time working on ads" for the sake of saving everyone's feelings. Next thing you know, what should have been a polite reshuffling is a negotiation with a union rep...
- UncleMeat 4y agoIt is weird to me how this community complains incessantly about things like lack of raises, nightmare interviewing processes, opaque promotion systems, micromanagement, abusive oncall, and forced attrition and also concludes "I am a rockstar god." For a specific example, people often notice that higher pay is going to more recent hires in spite of being less skilled. It is very clear that the current system is not "the most skilled get the most pay" but when unions are mentioned people immediately retreat to this assumption.
- UncleMeat 4y agoWhen the tech industry isn't unionized: "Sorry, we need long 24h oncall shifts to keep the service up. No, we won't pay you extra." "Sorry, we are shutting down your team. No severance, by the way." "No, we won't share the minutes for the meeting the managers had to discuss your promotion where we rejected you. Try again next time." "I know that Bob is paid $50,000 more than you despite being at the same level and with less experience. No, we won't give you a raise."
- UtopiaPunk 4y agoThat's FUD.
- pjmlp 4y agoThankfully in many European countries unions span across the industry, it doesn't matter if there is one on the building to enforce our worker rights.
- tibbon 4y agoI used to think this too, but then I recently helped organize a new tech union. Traditional unions and tech unions are pretty different indeed. But unions stand to be one possible tool to help remediate some of the problems unique to tech. For non-managers, this change can often be difficult to influence otherwise. Nothing says they have to mirror construction unions, anymore than management in tech has to mirror construction management In addition to having a stronger voice around working conditions (which are pretty awful in some tech fields like game development), they also stand to help workers have a stronger guiding voice on decision making. There is valid critique against tech that too rarely does anyone ask if something should be done; not just if it can be done.
- camtarn 4y ago> how privileged and detached we are from real labor Speak for yourself. My partner is a horticulturist, a job which involves rather a lot of manual labour, and was one of the union reps for the Botanic Gardens at which he worked for a while. And I still think unions are a very good idea. Maybe this is a non-American view, and his counterpart unionized horticulturists in the US are all taking bribes on the side. But I can't see it. It feels like the problem is that construction unions - which, yep, got pretty notorious for corruption - are the only unions people know about, not the ones quietly working to fight for their members' rights.
- dleslie 4y agoMy wife works in health care in Canada, in a paramedical role. Despite working in both Union and non-Union roles, she absolutely prefers working in private clinics without Union oversight. The reason is simple: the total compensation is better, and none of the petty personal politics of the public sector Union gets in the way of her efforts. Similarly, I have numerous members of my extended family who worked or still work in government Union roles. Most hate their union, due to the aforementioned petty politics, some have moved to private industry and become much happier, and notably the only one happy with their union is deeply involved in it. When people say tech should unionize I wonder what is so appealing about being compensated less, having opportunities for internal progression gated by seniority, and giving your job an extra thick layer of social harassment and stress. But then, I live in Canada, and we have some fairly decent basic employment rights and social supports.
- UtopiaPunk 4y agoAnecdotes are neat. I have a lot of friends and family who work in education and in medicine. Some are union, some aren't. The unionized workers are really happy to have the support of their union. The COVID pandemic was brutal on both industries. I recall one of them saying, "I feel like the only people that care about what happens to me is my union."
- dleslie 4y agoCOVID was brutal on medical here in Canada, and seems to have been the final push to send our health care system into full collapse. The unions basically abandoned their membership, taking no meaningful action beyond some wailing to the press. At least inflation seems to be giving some impetus to take action, with BCGEU taking job action. Three years after COVID hit and only because every member, regardless of seniority and cushy position, is hit by the effects of inflation.
- CPLX 4y agoIndeed. When I look at union workers like Lebron James and Ja’marr Chase all I see is people who contribute zero effort and a workplace that only rewards tenure.
- UncleMeat 4y agoAnd as we all know, ordinary corporate management is never filled with political bullshit that promotes people for reasons other than quality work and impact.
- doikor 4y agoI've worked my whole career in tech (ok a couple summers as a bicycle mechanic and doing forest work while younger) and all of those in a union shop. Seems to be just fine to me though I don't have any experience of it not being like that. Also I've never actually been a member of the union but that does seem to have mattered in my career as by law every employee has to be treated the same if you are a union member or not here (Finland). > Construction unions etc are hyper corrupt and reward tenure over effort. There is no reason why the tech union has to be like that. The union is made out of its members so they pretty much decide its course.
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- UtopiaPunk 4y agoLol, did a CEO or HR rep write this? "Ewwww, unions are for dumb rich people and are also corrupt" lmao Unions are a way for workers to have more bargaining power in their workplace. When one employee sits at a table with their boss, exactly one person is in charge, and exactly one person is at risk of being fired. When multiple workers stand together, they can withhold their valuable labor from their employer. The tables are much more even, and more fruitful bargaining process can take place. That's just two parties haggling, classic market stuff.
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- ihm 4y agoTo those who think tech workers don’t need unions: unions don’t have to be about wages. They are simply an association that lets us as workers deliberate and coordinate our actions. I think in tech they would be better used to help us control what we are working on and the conditions in which we do it. For example, you could use your collective power to push for - eliminating creepy tracking from the software you work on that execs wants to put in - open sourcing more of your work - eliminating addictive dark patterns - requiring engineers’ sign-off on deadlines to avoid unrealistic ones foisted upon you - working on projects that seem meaningful and useful for the world instead of what will make your investors the most money and a million other things specific to your context
- pjmlp 4y agoAnd in many countries there is no need to have one in the building, they span across the industry and one can always reach out to them anyway.
- hagy 4y agoI'm generally in favor of unions as a one of many tools for helping workers get a better working arrangement. Yet I personally don't see the need for this tool in tech. The labor market has been red hot for years with demand exceeding supply and numerous options for each worker. Firms and their management seem exceedingly responsive (sometimes to a fault) with regard to addressing worker requests. Sure there are still plenty of suboptimal tech employers and no firm is ever perfect for every worker. Yet worker choice seems to be sufficient to let tech workers find a firm that meets their requirements. Some people are still choosing employers that many of us would reject, yet those workers are likely just prioritizing different things. Some people want to maximize their pay or progress more quickly in their career. Some people might even want to center work in their lives and seek a demanding employer. Whatever; to each their own.
- romanows 4y agoIt seems nearly impossible to determine how a company or team operates from the outside. An independent organization that could categorize approaches to software development along different axes (and also share true salary/TC info) would be useful.
- gedy 4y agoI think the comments here will be a mix of Europeans who have relatively good unions and experiences, and Americans who (recently) have history of pretty bad unions. Really difficult to discuss this without differentiating this.
- socialismisok 4y agoI'm American, staunchly pro union. I think tech workers should be unionizing now to protect some of the power they currently hold. They should be fighting for things like: paid overtime or paid oncall, ip rights for side projects, smoothing off the four year cliff, better parental leave (at least ät Amazon), more transparency in performance reviews, etc.
- UncleMeat 4y agoYep. People often say "but things are so good and employees have so much power to demand good things, so why should we have a union" when this is precisely the time to get all of those good things actually set in stone. When the market is bad and labor has less power it is harder to achieve anything.
- nemo44x 4y agoThe only power tech workers hold today is that their is huge demand for their skills and limited people that can fulfill that demand locally. So contributors are paid $200k+ in many markets and a comfortable 6-figures in others. In effect tech workers control the means of production because computers are commodities and their knowledge is the means of production. Because if this their share of the putouts are enormous compared to most industries. It’s why besides massive checks we are granted RSUs to ISOs, generous time off and parental leave, free healthcare, etc. The power tech workers have won’t change until there is a larger supply than there is demand. At that point your union is useless since scabs will be hired globally and there’s no picket line to cross.
- socialismisok 4y agoIt's not so black and white. Already Google, Facebook, Amazon, etc are tightening their purse strings, looking for places they can squeeze gains out from their employees pockets. Also, we can use our strength to build solidarity for the workers who aren't tech. From cafeteria staff to business to sales to security... We can use our bargaining position to improve conditions for every worker.
- endisneigh 4y agoCurious to hear about about any tech unions anywhere in the world where revenue (not profit) is superior to a non-union counterpart, per worker. At the very least I'd be curious to hear about a union (not guild or association) where the profession does not involve significant manual labor, where it makes more money per worker.
- UncleMeat 4y agoWhy would this be an expectation? I experience only very modest benefits from my employer increasing revenue/employee and in some cases this is achieved through actions that explicitly harm me. The point of a union is to advocate for its members, not to make a corporation grow.
- endisneigh 4y agoIf a unionized organization makes less money per worker I would expect members to make less money. My premise supposed equivalent work. The result is that union members make less money than non-union. If this is the case why would anyone join? If this is not the case, where are the examples of such? There are plenty of examples of this outside of tech. For example in Chicago teachers in the union make more money than non-union teachers. Pretty easy to look up.
- epgui 4y ago> If a unionized organization makes less money per worker I would expect members to make less money. This only works if both: - Wages are associated with business profits - Business profits are the limiting factor for wages Unions do their best work when the two above criteria are not met.
- endisneigh 4y agoThat sounds reasonable enough. Where's the example? Kickstarter for example pays a lot less than other tech companies as far as I can tell.
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- nemo44x 4y agoTech unions make no sense at all. In a capitalist world there are 2 main things: the means of production and the ownership of outputs. Unions are a purely capitalist concept and exist to limit exploitation since the workers do not control the means of production or the outputs since they trade their labor for a paycheck. Tech workers however do control the means of production since their knowledge is their own property. The computer they work on is a mere commodity and irrelevant to the means of production. Because the means of production are owned by the worker, they demand an extremely large share of the outputs in the form of paychecks many standard deviations above average labor, first class healthcare, stock grants which has made hundreds of thousands of us wealthy, and other first class benefits. What can a union do other than lay claim to your ownership of the means of production?! You control that and a union would love to get a piece.
- UtopiaPunk 4y agoTech workers don't own the code they write for their employer, or the infrastructure they maintain for ops. Tech workers don't receive a share of profits that result from the value they create for the company. Tech workers don't have complete control of their schedules. I'll grant that working in tech often means more control and flexibility than other professions, and the pay is usually decent. But at the end of the day, tech workers are creating value for their bosses, and the bosses are the ones who benefit and tell the workers what to do. A unionized workforce would tip the balance a little more in favor of workers (and a worker-owned cooperative would flip the script entirely). A strong union ran by the rank-and-file would be awesome for tech workers.
- l3uwin 4y agoProudly a member of the FNV. United we bargain, devided we beg.