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I'm constantly chuckling at the underestimation of Apple's influence in the US and worldwide. Do you really think all of the cellular providers and resellers ar

I'm constantly chuckling at the underestimation of Apple's influence in the US and worldwide. Do you really think all of the cellular providers and resellers are not at this moment reviewing their business model and giving strong consideration to supporting eSIM activation? The folio of "stupid" ideas that people claim Apple adopted which are now readily adopted by many Android phone purveyors is substantial. No one spends more money on all consumer products domestically and internationally than Apple users especially folks with a new phone. We shall see how many "cheap" SIM purveyors suddenly figure out a way to go eSIM. In the meantime I'll take the increased security (now my SMS 2FA is a lot more secure than before) and one less opening for dust and moisture to get inside. I can't wait to send my first Satellite message...

mdmglr 4y ago
IT has nothing to do with carriers supporting eSIM or not. With eSIM comes activation processes where carriers can make pricing decisions. Have an iPhone or coming from the US? There's a different higher price for you. Today you can buy a sim at any carrier store or cell shop around the world and insert it into your phone. Zero hassle. Fair pricing. eSIM opens the floodgates for carriers to lock you in or implement stupid rules. I bet Verizon and ATT are salivating the ability to lock down the eSIM. Also eSIM being less hackable than the SIM? Time will tell. Im sure the NSO Group is already working on that.
- intev 4y ago
  > Today you can buy a sim at any carrier store or cell shop around the world and insert it into your phone. Zero hassle. The exact same is possible is with an e-sim. Have you ever used an e-sim? It's literally a QR code the carrier hands you that you need to scan. You can scan it with any e-sim compatible phone. This is the equivalent of "inserting the sim into any phone" except without the actual insertion. > I bet Verizon and ATT are salivating the ability to lock down the eSIM. Assuming you are a new iPhone user? ATT locked the sim down for iphones in the first few years. Not sure how it is now, but earlier I couldnt use my phone with any other carrier unless I begged ATT to unlock it. I once had to show them my travel documents to say that I just needed it for a short while so I can use a foreign sim on what they considered their phone. So this is nothing new, and e-sim doesnt improve or worsen the situation.
  - mdmglr 4y ago
    We shall see. My hope is eSIM is as seamless and bs free as a physical sim. The Pro Max 14 will be my first eSIM phone.
- bestham 4y ago
  All this is possible with standard SIMs. The SIM is just a trust anchor, a token. What that token means for the telco in terms of services and pricing is entirely up to the telco. eSIM is just a way to connect to the HSM that is already soldered on the phone at manufacture. The only problem is that if you damage your phone you have to bootstrap a new “onboarding” and cannot just extract the SIM and put it in a new phone.
  - addicted 4y ago
    Ah yes, the old Apple fan trick of comparing feature B to feature A, when the real comparison is feature B to (feature A + feature B). Apple is not taking us from a physical SIM to an eSIM world. Apple is taking us from a physical SIM + eSIM to an only eSIM world. All the arguments in this thread so far in favor of Apple’s decision fail when considering this reality.
- ev1 4y ago
  > I bet Verizon and ATT are salivating the ability to lock down the eSIM. I already have to deal with this bullshit. ATT has a device whitelist that they refuse to deviate from - you cannot just put a SIM into any device you want. ATT also will not give you a physical eSIM (they deliver their eSIMs on cardboard cards as QR codes printed; I have not been able to remotely provision one, they charge for these, and stores run out frequently)
cowtools 4y ago
>now my SMS 2FA is a lot more secure than before doubtful. insecurity of sms has always been on carrier side. this does not solve fundamental problem.
the_mitsuhiko 4y ago
> I'll take the increased security (now my SMS 2FA is a lot more secure than before) and one less opening for dust and moisture to get inside. There was so much esim fraud in Austria via customer support attacks and the online self management interfaces that they removed the ability to get an esim QR online. Some carriers are bringing it back but jusr yesterday A1 (the largest carrier) had to admit that customers got their esim stolen through attacks of their processes.
lsc36 4y ago
In Japan, eSIMs are exclusive to Japanese citizen and permanent residents. Not sure about the reason behind this but I don't think they're going to change policies just because Apple is pushing.
SwiftyBug 4y ago
> I can't wait to send my first Satellite message You mean yo can't wait to be stranded in a remote place, severely injured and having to maybe get help by pointing your phone to the right place in the sky? That's the oddest FOMO I've ever seen.
- SpikeDad 4y ago
  Satellite messaging is also for "more casual uses" as was clearly noted in the keynote. Probably should have watched it.
seba_dos1 4y ago
> In the meantime I'll take the increased security (now my SMS 2FA is a lot more secure than before) Sounds like you don't understand how eSIM and/or SMS works.
throwoutway 4y ago
It’s unclear what you mean by eSIM and SMS being more secure. It’s not, as other commenters noted. Also, the international SIM card thing is still an issue. It could take 2-4 years for carriers to pick up, and the buyer needs to beware and it’s silly for Apple to not provide the workaround. I won’t opt for an iPhone 14 as this is exactly my use-case Also the Satellite messages is for emergencies. Are you planning to be in an emergency or just abusing the service?
- analogj 4y ago
  I’ve been using Airalo for a couple years now to get cheap data during international travel. I’m sure there are cheaper local/physical store options, but the ease of getting access to local cellular network with a couple of clicks cannot be understated. Airalo supports 190+ countries via esims, it’s amazing Airalo $3 off referral link for anyone who wants to check it out - https://ref.airalo.com/nLLz https://ref.airalo.com/nLLz
- SpikeDad 4y ago
  A main mechanism for SMS insecurity is the ability to remove the SIM and put it into your phone to intercept the 2FA. That is no longer possible. Yep. Apple is silly. You'll make note of this claim chowder for us won't you? And right in the keynote was the comment "And for more casual uses also". Why don't you watch it before you comment?
  - Nextgrid 4y ago
    This seems like an edge-case, requires physical access to the device, and can be defeated by a SIM PIN. Most people are targeted by online-only attacks which social-engineer the carrier into doing a SIM swap - this would happen just as well with eSIM.

mdmglr 4y ago

IT has nothing to do with carriers supporting eSIM or not. With eSIM comes activation processes where carriers can make pricing decisions. Have an iPhone or coming from the US? There's a different higher price for you. Today you can buy a sim at any carrier store or cell shop around the world and insert it into your phone. Zero hassle. Fair pricing. eSIM opens the floodgates for carriers to lock you in or implement stupid rules. I bet Verizon and ATT are salivating the ability to lock down the eSIM. Also eSIM being less hackable than the SIM? Time will tell. Im sure the NSO Group is already working on that.

intev 4y ago
> Today you can buy a sim at any carrier store or cell shop around the world and insert it into your phone. Zero hassle. The exact same is possible is with an e-sim. Have you ever used an e-sim? It's literally a QR code the carrier hands you that you need to scan. You can scan it with any e-sim compatible phone. This is the equivalent of "inserting the sim into any phone" except without the actual insertion. > I bet Verizon and ATT are salivating the ability to lock down the eSIM. Assuming you are a new iPhone user? ATT locked the sim down for iphones in the first few years. Not sure how it is now, but earlier I couldnt use my phone with any other carrier unless I begged ATT to unlock it. I once had to show them my travel documents to say that I just needed it for a short while so I can use a foreign sim on what they considered their phone. So this is nothing new, and e-sim doesnt improve or worsen the situation.
- mdmglr 4y ago
  We shall see. My hope is eSIM is as seamless and bs free as a physical sim. The Pro Max 14 will be my first eSIM phone.
bestham 4y ago
All this is possible with standard SIMs. The SIM is just a trust anchor, a token. What that token means for the telco in terms of services and pricing is entirely up to the telco. eSIM is just a way to connect to the HSM that is already soldered on the phone at manufacture. The only problem is that if you damage your phone you have to bootstrap a new “onboarding” and cannot just extract the SIM and put it in a new phone.
- addicted 4y ago
  Ah yes, the old Apple fan trick of comparing feature B to feature A, when the real comparison is feature B to (feature A + feature B). Apple is not taking us from a physical SIM to an eSIM world. Apple is taking us from a physical SIM + eSIM to an only eSIM world. All the arguments in this thread so far in favor of Apple’s decision fail when considering this reality.
ev1 4y ago
> I bet Verizon and ATT are salivating the ability to lock down the eSIM. I already have to deal with this bullshit. ATT has a device whitelist that they refuse to deviate from - you cannot just put a SIM into any device you want. ATT also will not give you a physical eSIM (they deliver their eSIMs on cardboard cards as QR codes printed; I have not been able to remotely provision one, they charge for these, and stores run out frequently)

cowtools 4y ago

>now my SMS 2FA is a lot more secure than before doubtful. insecurity of sms has always been on carrier side. this does not solve fundamental problem.

the_mitsuhiko 4y ago

> I'll take the increased security (now my SMS 2FA is a lot more secure than before) and one less opening for dust and moisture to get inside. There was so much esim fraud in Austria via customer support attacks and the online self management interfaces that they removed the ability to get an esim QR online. Some carriers are bringing it back but jusr yesterday A1 (the largest carrier) had to admit that customers got their esim stolen through attacks of their processes.

lsc36 4y ago

In Japan, eSIMs are exclusive to Japanese citizen and permanent residents. Not sure about the reason behind this but I don't think they're going to change policies just because Apple is pushing.

SwiftyBug 4y ago

> I can't wait to send my first Satellite message You mean yo can't wait to be stranded in a remote place, severely injured and having to maybe get help by pointing your phone to the right place in the sky? That's the oddest FOMO I've ever seen.

SpikeDad 4y ago
Satellite messaging is also for "more casual uses" as was clearly noted in the keynote. Probably should have watched it.

seba_dos1 4y ago

> In the meantime I'll take the increased security (now my SMS 2FA is a lot more secure than before) Sounds like you don't understand how eSIM and/or SMS works.

throwoutway 4y ago

It’s unclear what you mean by eSIM and SMS being more secure. It’s not, as other commenters noted. Also, the international SIM card thing is still an issue. It could take 2-4 years for carriers to pick up, and the buyer needs to beware and it’s silly for Apple to not provide the workaround. I won’t opt for an iPhone 14 as this is exactly my use-case Also the Satellite messages is for emergencies. Are you planning to be in an emergency or just abusing the service?

analogj 4y ago
I’ve been using Airalo for a couple years now to get cheap data during international travel. I’m sure there are cheaper local/physical store options, but the ease of getting access to local cellular network with a couple of clicks cannot be understated. Airalo supports 190+ countries via esims, it’s amazing Airalo $3 off referral link for anyone who wants to check it out - https://ref.airalo.com/nLLz https://ref.airalo.com/nLLz
SpikeDad 4y ago
A main mechanism for SMS insecurity is the ability to remove the SIM and put it into your phone to intercept the 2FA. That is no longer possible. Yep. Apple is silly. You'll make note of this claim chowder for us won't you? And right in the keynote was the comment "And for more casual uses also". Why don't you watch it before you comment?
- Nextgrid 4y ago
  This seems like an edge-case, requires physical access to the device, and can be defeated by a SIM PIN. Most people are targeted by online-only attacks which social-engineer the carrier into doing a SIM swap - this would happen just as well with eSIM.