3 ms·

> I'm always ripping on people using the title Engineer when talking about software development. Why?

wpietri 4y ago
In many places, engineers are registered professionals along the lines of doctors or lawyers. As Wikipedia says: > The foundational qualifications of an engineer typically include a four-year bachelor's degree in an engineering discipline, or in some jurisdictions, a master's degree in an engineering discipline plus four to six years of peer-reviewed professional practice (culminating in a project report or thesis) and passage of engineering board examinations. A professional Engineer is typically, is a person registered under an Engineering Council which is widely accepted. Personally, I mostly refer to myself as a developer, not an engineer. Funnily, my great-grandfather came to America to work as an "engineer" in the Minnesota mines back when the standards for "engineer" were much looser. I imagine we'll have a similar process in the coming decades, where some sorts of software engineer will be licensed, and that you won't be able to call yourself by that term without getting into trouble.
- imafish 4y ago
  So having a B/M.Sc. in Software Engineering is not enough to qualify for the title of Software Engineer? :D
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - criddell 4y ago
    The degree means something (assuming the school is accredited) but the title doesn't. Anybody can call themselves a Software Engineer. For a very brief moment in time, some jurisdictions fought against the use of the title. In Canada Engineer is a protected title (like CPA) and they tried to hold Software Engineer to the same professional standards as other engineers (civil engineer, mechanical engineer, chemical engineer, etc...). This meant having a degree, working under a Professional Engineer for some period of time, then passing an exam demonstrating expertise and high ethical standards. I don't remember all the details, but I think Microsoft fought this and today Software Engineer doesn't imply anything in Canada. If Software Engineer were a real profession, then you could be sued for malpractice and lose your ability to work in the field. It would also mean you have real power to push back against employers asking you to do illegal or unethical things. You would have personal liability and wouldn't be able to claim you were just following orders. https://engineerscanada.ca/become-an-engineer/use-of-professional-title-and-designations https://engineerscanada.ca/become-an-engineer/use-of-profess...
    - imafish 4y ago
      Ok - maybe in North America. I have never heard of such a thing in Europe. I work with engineers of different disciplines. I have never heard of anyone having to “work under a professional” for some time after taking their degree.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - criddell 4y ago
        Depends where in Europe I suppose: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Engineer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Engineer If you are talking about software engineer, then no you wouldn't have heard of that. You can't get a EUR ING designation as a software engineer (AFAIK).
  - wpietri 4y ago
    In my opinion, it should not be. Academic study just isn't sufficient to understand modern software development. One of the hallmarks of academia is how short-lived everything is. But many of the interesting issues in software development only become visible on long-lived projects. As a hiring manager, I consider fresh-out-of-school developers to be dangerous until proven otherwise. I don't yet think software development is stable enough to turn it into proper engineering. But if it were, what I'd be looking for is a relatively high standard that includes both exams and a few thousand hours of supervised practical experience, similar to what they require of electricians or therapists.

In many places, engineers are registered professionals along the lines of doctors or lawyers. As Wikipedia says: > The foundational qualifications of an engineer typically include a four-year bachelor's degree in an engineering discipline, or in some jurisdictions, a master's degree in an engineering discipline plus four to six years of peer-reviewed professional practice (culminating in a project report or thesis) and passage of engineering board examinations. A professional Engineer is typically, is a person registered under an Engineering Council which is widely accepted. Personally, I mostly refer to myself as a developer, not an engineer. Funnily, my great-grandfather came to America to work as an "engineer" in the Minnesota mines back when the standards for "engineer" were much looser. I imagine we'll have a similar process in the coming decades, where some sorts of software engineer will be licensed, and that you won't be able to call yourself by that term without getting into trouble.

imafish 4y ago
So having a B/M.Sc. in Software Engineering is not enough to qualify for the title of Software Engineer? :D
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- criddell 4y ago
  The degree means something (assuming the school is accredited) but the title doesn't. Anybody can call themselves a Software Engineer. For a very brief moment in time, some jurisdictions fought against the use of the title. In Canada Engineer is a protected title (like CPA) and they tried to hold Software Engineer to the same professional standards as other engineers (civil engineer, mechanical engineer, chemical engineer, etc...). This meant having a degree, working under a Professional Engineer for some period of time, then passing an exam demonstrating expertise and high ethical standards. I don't remember all the details, but I think Microsoft fought this and today Software Engineer doesn't imply anything in Canada. If Software Engineer were a real profession, then you could be sued for malpractice and lose your ability to work in the field. It would also mean you have real power to push back against employers asking you to do illegal or unethical things. You would have personal liability and wouldn't be able to claim you were just following orders. https://engineerscanada.ca/become-an-engineer/use-of-professional-title-and-designations https://engineerscanada.ca/become-an-engineer/use-of-profess...
  - imafish 4y ago
    Ok - maybe in North America. I have never heard of such a thing in Europe. I work with engineers of different disciplines. I have never heard of anyone having to “work under a professional” for some time after taking their degree.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - criddell 4y ago
      Depends where in Europe I suppose: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Engineer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Engineer If you are talking about software engineer, then no you wouldn't have heard of that. You can't get a EUR ING designation as a software engineer (AFAIK).
- wpietri 4y ago
  In my opinion, it should not be. Academic study just isn't sufficient to understand modern software development. One of the hallmarks of academia is how short-lived everything is. But many of the interesting issues in software development only become visible on long-lived projects. As a hiring manager, I consider fresh-out-of-school developers to be dangerous until proven otherwise. I don't yet think software development is stable enough to turn it into proper engineering. But if it were, what I'd be looking for is a relatively high standard that includes both exams and a few thousand hours of supervised practical experience, similar to what they require of electricians or therapists.