9 ms·

Regarding the eSIM-only iPhone 14 models in the U.S.

55 points by segfault11 4y ago

t0bia_s 4y ago
Another step for loosing privacy in telecommunications. Also way more steps and time to switch in case of phone faulty.
AgentK20 4y ago
Personally I feel that this is a step in the right direction, albeit at the cost of some user pain in the short term. Prepaid SIMs are already manufactured, packaged, and shipped to convenience stores, so why not a Prepaid eSIM QR code? I imagine that it'd be cheaper to print a simple QR code for an entire factory run than to have SIM cards manufactured with unique data on them, and the savings can be spent upgrading the infrastructure to support eSIM (a one-time process).
- cutierust 4y ago
  I would like a self service way to get e sim codes when I want to do a lot of swapping
  - Nextgrid 4y ago
    Twilio can provide SM-DP codes that will provision eSIMs.
- csande17 4y ago
  > Prepaid SIMs are already manufactured, packaged, and shipped to convenience stores, so why not a Prepaid eSIM QR code? Unlike regular SIM cards, the eSIM QR code doesn't actually contain your subscriber information. Everyone who uses the carrier gets the same code. This can make the process of signing up for a new carrier more complex, as you need to tell them your phone's IMEI number before you attempt to use the SIM. (This also makes switching devices harder; you can't just pop the SIM out and use it in a different phone.) So a post-eSIM prepaid carrier would probably end up selling something like iTunes gift cards, with a code you have to scratch off and type into a website. Or they'd just sell exclusively online.
  - gst 4y ago
    > Everyone who uses the carrier gets the same code. I don't think that this is always the case: For my eSIM at T-Mobile US it was as you described: The QR code appeared to be a general QR code and T-Mobile seems to have recognized my phone based on the IMEI that I configured previously. But for my eSIM at another European carrier that I'm using each QR code appears to be different and at no point in the process the website asks about an IMEI.
dynamic_sausage 4y ago
The author seems to be unaware of the large market for travel data esims. Airalo and Ubigi are two examples of user-facing resellers of these, which make buying a physical prepaid sim near obsolete. I would say that for travel, esim is much better than sim. Given that seamless data roaming is one of the main features of Google Fi, this opinion is not uncommon.
- brokenodo 4y ago
  Travel SIMs are great but so are options. One issue with outfits like Airalo is they often give you an eSIM from a random third country carrier that happens to have a cheap roaming agreement in the country you are in, resulting in your data being routed around the world and 300ms+ pings.
- mynameisvlad 4y ago
  Eh, although the travel data eSIMs are better than travel data SIMs, it still doesn't beat local SIMs. For example, anytime I go back to Romania I pick up a ~6EUR prepaid Orange SIM card which has 2000 minutes, unlimited texts, and 6GB data with a bonus 120GB data on activation. According to https://esimdb.com/romania https://esimdb.com/romania, that same 6EUR offers 1GB of data. Is it more convenient? Sure, a bit. But it's nowhere near as cheap for most local SIMs.
  - techsupporter 4y ago
    I have found that having a local number when I go to a new place is a big convenience. Doing things like ordering takeaway food online or trying to contact a hotel or some other service is a lot easier when not having to deal with an international call. Most of the travel eSIMs don't provide a local number (esim.net is the only one I can think of off the top of my head) but getting a SIM at a corner store after getting out of the airport always does.
    - WanderPanda 4y ago
      I recently used https://www.getnomad.app/ https://www.getnomad.app/ and it worked flawless. I like the convenience of enabling/disabling eSIM instead of fiddling with Sim Cards
zarzavat 4y ago
The markets where physical SIM swapping is most entrenched are exactly the markers where iPhones are minority products, i.e. the places that Apple has most potential for growth. Is the SIM tray really so important that that Apple is going to sacrifice those markets? I doubt it. So if Apple is tied to physical SIM for the foreseeable future, why bother trying to kill it? Feels like a butterfly keyboard moment.
- mmoskal 4y ago
  I believe they only kill SIM in US for now. Could be they keep it for a year or two more in other places until they adapt to eSIM.
azeemh 4y ago
no headphone port, no sd cards, no charger cables, now no sim cards, this is very much apple's locked down approach just further evolving. imagine they made the most useful, intuitive, and beautiful device instead of just the thinnest one?
- threeseed 4y ago
  Phones are a zero-sum game. Having features like headphone port and SD cards means you don't have space for other ones that are potentially more useful or popular. And the fact that the market quietly moved on from headphone ports, SD cards etc. shows that it was the right call. Physical SIM cards will unquestionably be the next to go.
  - throwaway0x7E6 4y ago
  - cowtools 4y ago
    >And the fact that the market quietly moved on from headphone ports, SD cards etc. shows that it was the right call. I doubt this. I think the market moved that way because it is more profitable to upsell users to wireless headphones or cloud storage or greater internal storage. Remember, apple releases airpods as they removed headphone jack? It does not necessarily represent an increase in utility on the customer side.
- SpikeDad 4y ago
  Yea. It's really put a dent in Apple's sales. Why do you think you are Apple's primary customer type? They want a solid phone with secure OS and App Store, no wires and they already have a dozen USB charging bricks. BTW The iPhone 14 Pro is actually thicker than the 13 - you know because they needed to put in a better camera and larger battery. And your snide comment is somehow implying that Android is more useful and intuitive? Hahah.
  - cowtools 4y ago
    Android would more useful and intuitive because it has an actual file-system, and the android phones generally come with replaceable storage. This has been my personal experience using an iphone myself and helping my family with their iphones. I think apple purposefully increases camera resolution, prevents upgradable storage, and charges much more for increased storage, all in an effort to upsell users to their "iCloud" network storage service. My experience with the iOS store is that it is mostly crap. I go to look for a pdf editor, the first three options that come up are a "free download" trying to get me to to sign up for an overpriced subscription service to use the app. The Android store is also garbage, but there is at least f-droid which is good. The idea that iOS is somehow made more secure through the locked-down App Store and firmware is a prototypical case of security-by-obscurity. It has been trivial for law enforcement and other motivated groups to bypass iOS security measures. Operational Security is not some collection of marketable "features" or "solutions" that can be bought, it is a holistic mindset towards reducing risk and severity of cyber-attack. When you outsource the security of the device to a single all-powerful company, that is not good opsec. The find-my-iphone network is an example of this: is is an inescapable global surveillance network. to me, this reflects poorly on apple's security and privacy practices. The apple "ecosystem" is designed in a way to encourage the use of proprietary software such that apple can extract a fraction of sales revenue through their store. Apple is a very profitable company because they are good at inventing new reasons to charge their customers more. I don't think the price of the product reflects its underlying usefulness, intuitiveness or security. That being said, most android OEMs do ship a quite bloated, non-standard verison of android- this is analogous to PC OEMs that will install bloatware on any windows laptop they sell. This reflects quite poorly on the android ecosystem: the OEMs like samsung that most associate with "high-quality" smartphones are paradoxically the crappiest OEMs when it comes to software.
_8j50 4y ago
They need to ban this shit. I need to be able to pickup a $30 flip phone and get it working with my sim. Honestly, Apple has added a lot if features I dislike and since I pretty much gave up on mobile privacy/security I have been preferring them because of nice ux/hardware but this is too much for me. 5G and wifi can track my movements through walls, "find my device" will use a satellite to pin me down if my account is pwned, businesses and employers are requiring these tracking devices. This shit is too messed up. I am gonna be moving to laptops and flip phones completely (except now esim threatens them as well). Please let me know if there are non-profits that lobby and promote liberty and privacy preserving tech. That aside I will write lawmakers I guess what other way is there to enact laws that tell apple and pals to fuck off with that shit?
- cowtools 4y ago
  Sure, phones have been moving in a terrible direction in terms of privacy, but I don't really see what the difference here is with eSim. Your modem can communicate with cell towers regardless of whether it has a SIM connected.
  - _8j50 4y ago
    It means i can't switch to a more private phone easily. For example I sometimes move my sim to a flip phone with only 4g now I won't be able to do that without contacting the carrier and jumping through hoops. They are enforcing sims as a permanent thing so it is more inconvenient for consumers and more costly for smaller device makers.
SpikeDad 4y ago
I'm constantly chuckling at the underestimation of Apple's influence in the US and worldwide. Do you really think all of the cellular providers and resellers are not at this moment reviewing their business model and giving strong consideration to supporting eSIM activation? The folio of "stupid" ideas that people claim Apple adopted which are now readily adopted by many Android phone purveyors is substantial. No one spends more money on all consumer products domestically and internationally than Apple users especially folks with a new phone. We shall see how many "cheap" SIM purveyors suddenly figure out a way to go eSIM. In the meantime I'll take the increased security (now my SMS 2FA is a lot more secure than before) and one less opening for dust and moisture to get inside. I can't wait to send my first Satellite message...
- mdmglr 4y ago
  IT has nothing to do with carriers supporting eSIM or not. With eSIM comes activation processes where carriers can make pricing decisions. Have an iPhone or coming from the US? There's a different higher price for you. Today you can buy a sim at any carrier store or cell shop around the world and insert it into your phone. Zero hassle. Fair pricing. eSIM opens the floodgates for carriers to lock you in or implement stupid rules. I bet Verizon and ATT are salivating the ability to lock down the eSIM. Also eSIM being less hackable than the SIM? Time will tell. Im sure the NSO Group is already working on that.
  - intev 4y ago
    > Today you can buy a sim at any carrier store or cell shop around the world and insert it into your phone. Zero hassle. The exact same is possible is with an e-sim. Have you ever used an e-sim? It's literally a QR code the carrier hands you that you need to scan. You can scan it with any e-sim compatible phone. This is the equivalent of "inserting the sim into any phone" except without the actual insertion. > I bet Verizon and ATT are salivating the ability to lock down the eSIM. Assuming you are a new iPhone user? ATT locked the sim down for iphones in the first few years. Not sure how it is now, but earlier I couldnt use my phone with any other carrier unless I begged ATT to unlock it. I once had to show them my travel documents to say that I just needed it for a short while so I can use a foreign sim on what they considered their phone. So this is nothing new, and e-sim doesnt improve or worsen the situation.
ericbarrett 4y ago
I see a lot of concern here and elsewhere about getting local pre-paid SIMs when traveling. Wouldn't widespread eSIM support be a boon for those carriers? As I understand it all they need is a thin app and a sign-up process. It's not a high barrier to entry and most pre-paid markets are very competitive, so I think there soon will be many choices. (The iPhone won't be the last to drop the physical SIM port.) The real losers will be the corner stores.
- 8ytecoder 4y ago
  It already exists. There is both Truphone and Airalo that I’ve used and actually quite liked. Much easier than finding a store to buy a sim. You can literally just activate it at the airport with WiFi. Also how I tested a domestic carrier before switching over, I didn’t have to order a sim and wait 10 days. This is a non-issue.
- daveoc64 4y ago
  How do you use an app without a data connection? A physical SIM requires no data connection to use. You can collect it from a vending machine, put it in your device and it works immediately. Carriers often don't let people outside of the country sign up for service - even prepaid. Perhaps in the long run we'll see consumer-friendly options, but so far, carriers all over the world have shown how anti-consumer eSIM can be. They have many new found opportunities to restrict competition, consumer choice, and make additional profit from unfair charges.
cutierust 4y ago
Surely there is an esim to nano sim adapter? And an adapter for connecting this adapter to computer for programming it?
- AdamJacobMuller 4y ago
  physical SIMs are an HSM which contains private key data which it will answer challenges for but not divulge.
- drdaeman 4y ago
  Nope. If you want to convert a SIM card (micro, nano or whatever size, they're all the same thing just differently cut plastic part) to eSIM you're SOL. Unless maybe if you have a very ancient SIM card that you've refused to upgrade (but then you're probably without LTE). The reverse might be theoretically possible during activation (if you feed the QR code to your own custom device and your software implementation doesn't guard the keys, letting you copy those freely), but I suspect there is some form of attestation so it won't let you activate with anything but "trusted" devices (by network, not yourself). And if eSIM is already activated on a phone, you most likely won't be able to extract the keys, because those are most likely protected with some sort of secure element.
  - gst 4y ago
    > The reverse might be theoretically possible during activation (if you feed the QR code to your own custom device and your software implementation doesn't guard the keys, letting you copy those freely), but I suspect there is some form of attestation so it won't let you activate with anything but "trusted" devices (by network, not yourself). There are programmable SIM cards available that allow you to install an eSIM from a QR code. Those SIM cards can then be used in any phone that doesn't officially support eSIMs: https://esim.me/ https://esim.me/
    - cutierust 4y ago
      Sorry i wasn't clear but this is what I was talking about so yeah
shalmanese 4y ago
> Since then, all iPhone models launched since then have eSIM support. Slight nitpick: Except those in Greater China which ship with dual nano-SIM slots and have no support for eSIM (even on iPhone 14). iPhone 14 shipped in the rest of the world have 1 physical SIM slot and support for either physical + eSIM or two eSIMs. I don't know engineering wise why China model phones can't ship with both dual physical slots and support any combo of two physical/eSIM. There doesn't appear to be any obvious technical limitation.
- gst 4y ago
  > I don't know engineering wise why China model phones can't ship with both dual physical slots and support any combo of two physical/eSIM. There doesn't appear to be any obvious technical limitation. As far as I know Chinese carriers don't support eSIMs for smartphones yet. I'm not sure if Apple would have been able to legally ship eSIM support in China, but even if they would be able to do that it would be an additional cost for a feature that nearly none of their customers there would use.
  - DivineBicycle 4y ago
    I don't believe they do as when I asked the people in the China Univom shop them had no idea what I was talking about.
  - shalmanese 4y ago
    According to Apple, the following carriers in Greater China support eSIM while all iPhones sold there don't support eSIM: Hong Kong 1O1O 3 csl China Mobile Hong Kong SmarTone --- Taiwan APT Chunghwa Telecom Far EasTone Taiwan Mobile Taiwan Star Truphone --- Macao CTM
gumby 4y ago
I wish I could have two eSIMs on my watch as I now can on my phone. As it is I have to disable phone service on my watch when traveling. That being said I still need a SIM card slot because I visit countries with no eSIM carriers.
Vibgyor5 4y ago
This is an extremely short-sighted move by Apple with no upside to the customer: - Traveling abroad will be a hassle: Multiple countries (and especially smaller carriers) *do not* offer eSIM functionality (and/or it is more cumbersome to get than advertized). Planning a trip to a developing country? You're in for a surprisedpikachu face when your expensive device $800-1000 can't use basic phone functionality compared to a basic $100 phone. Step outside the international airport in Cambodia (like I did just a few days back) and ask for eSIM - and you're going to get stares. Physical SIM is the way to go in developing and under-developed countries. - "But I can just use an app!" argument does not work: Sure you can. There are apps like Airalo and others but - they're often targeted around offering data only and are often more expensive than buying a local physical SIM. - Moving abroad with new iPhone will be a challenge: Good chunk of regular business travelers or expats living in developing countries. I actually know a girl who moved to India for a couple months' project and was trying to set up eSIM with a carrier in India for days. Physical SIM took 5 minutes to swap!
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- razemio 4y ago
  It is very naive to think it will stay this way. Now that Apple made this move, cell providers in any country will be forced to provide e-sims to stay in business. Apple has such a huge influence it won't take years but months even if it only targets us smartphones. Other phone manufacturers will follow this decision sooner than later.
  - AussieWog93 4y ago
    I don't think the average phone provider in Cambodia will worry too much about the list revenue from not supporting a particular variant of iPhone 14.
    - cowtools 4y ago
      It will eventually trickle into the low-end android market, especially if it can be used to save cost.
rock_artist 4y ago
One implication not considered with eSIM is that not the SIM is indeed virtual. if something happens to the device... you need to do much more to get yourself up and running. An example, my wife dropped her phone and her screen is now completely broken. phone unusable. When the phone has a physical SIM, I can simply take out the SIM and put it in a backup/older phone. With eSIM only, I need to: contact the carrier or have an additional phone with additional "backup" sim.
- withinboredom 4y ago
  Same happened to my sons phone, but it has an esim. I pulled out the original sim paper, scanned the QR code, entered the confirmation and SIM pin. Bam, it was transferred instantly to the new phone. It was easier than a traditional sim, simply because I didn’t have to create or find a tool to open the sim tray.
  - rcarmo 4y ago
    No, but you do have to keep the original paper around, assuming you got one in the first place. Those things easily get junked or misplaced.
    - withinboredom 4y ago
      You can also go online to do it in like three clicks, but you have to verify stuff to get the QR code. And don’t you keep the original paper the physical sim comes on for the PUK?
      - rcarmo 4y ago
        I make a note of the PUK and IMSI in the family OneNote. Have so for years.
        withinboredom 4y ago
        Nothing stopping you from storing the QR code either.
Gys 4y ago
Will the phone only have one esim? Currently I use both the esim AND the physical sim of my phone. Very convenient and therefore a feature that is very dear to me. Edit: seems the phone can support up to 8 esims :-)
kotaKat 4y ago
My problem with eSIM only is as a private network architect (working with open source LTE EPC stuff, for instance), I don't know exactly where the hell I can go to get an eSIM cut for our test networks. I can't figure out what eSIM personalization/etc providers will even take on such a small use case like myself where I just need to have an eSIM provisioned and get my authentication values to throw into the core network. This is going to screw over a lot of private LTE deployments on CBRS if there's no good way to cut eSIMs for this use.
mamcx 4y ago
The fear (for me) is that this make a blow for pre-paid. I have never get a plan in all this years, and wanna stay like that. But this stuff make even more easy(?) to force to get into one (the amount of SPAM I get for my carrier to please pay monthly is amazing, and with this stuff I worry if will be easier to get trapped). P.D: I reluctantly use cellphone, mostly for development (I made mobile apps), and rarely if ever move out.
scrubs 4y ago
Android here ... Was in Europe recently and was gonna esim my way into connectivity there. Then realized no support. My next Android phone better have esim. Instead I had to buy sims over a taxi ride to store and back and back by having the taxi wait outside cause I could not phone for a new one in the small chance I couldn't get the new sim to work.
johncalvinyoung 4y ago
Ugh. I'm not planning on updating this cycle, but eSIM + physical SIM was best of both worlds for me, as a US user who travels internationally. Carriers in my most common European destination do not offer eSIM or restrict it solely to long-term monthly accounts... whereas I could pick up a rolling month-to-month SIM card with a great local plan super easily before. Sure, maybe by the time I upgrade next more carriers will be offering it. But it's definitely a current downside and one which I expect will be exploited for market segmentation in future.

55 points by segfault11 4y ago

Another step for loosing privacy in telecommunications. Also way more steps and time to switch in case of phone faulty.

Personally I feel that this is a step in the right direction, albeit at the cost of some user pain in the short term. Prepaid SIMs are already manufactured, packaged, and shipped to convenience stores, so why not a Prepaid eSIM QR code? I imagine that it'd be cheaper to print a simple QR code for an entire factory run than to have SIM cards manufactured with unique data on them, and the savings can be spent upgrading the infrastructure to support eSIM (a one-time process).

cutierust 4y ago
I would like a self service way to get e sim codes when I want to do a lot of swapping
- Nextgrid 4y ago
  Twilio can provide SM-DP codes that will provision eSIMs.
csande17 4y ago
> Prepaid SIMs are already manufactured, packaged, and shipped to convenience stores, so why not a Prepaid eSIM QR code? Unlike regular SIM cards, the eSIM QR code doesn't actually contain your subscriber information. Everyone who uses the carrier gets the same code. This can make the process of signing up for a new carrier more complex, as you need to tell them your phone's IMEI number before you attempt to use the SIM. (This also makes switching devices harder; you can't just pop the SIM out and use it in a different phone.) So a post-eSIM prepaid carrier would probably end up selling something like iTunes gift cards, with a code you have to scratch off and type into a website. Or they'd just sell exclusively online.
- gst 4y ago
  > Everyone who uses the carrier gets the same code. I don't think that this is always the case: For my eSIM at T-Mobile US it was as you described: The QR code appeared to be a general QR code and T-Mobile seems to have recognized my phone based on the IMEI that I configured previously. But for my eSIM at another European carrier that I'm using each QR code appears to be different and at no point in the process the website asks about an IMEI.

dynamic_sausage 4y ago

The author seems to be unaware of the large market for travel data esims. Airalo and Ubigi are two examples of user-facing resellers of these, which make buying a physical prepaid sim near obsolete. I would say that for travel, esim is much better than sim. Given that seamless data roaming is one of the main features of Google Fi, this opinion is not uncommon.

brokenodo 4y ago
Travel SIMs are great but so are options. One issue with outfits like Airalo is they often give you an eSIM from a random third country carrier that happens to have a cheap roaming agreement in the country you are in, resulting in your data being routed around the world and 300ms+ pings.
mynameisvlad 4y ago
Eh, although the travel data eSIMs are better than travel data SIMs, it still doesn't beat local SIMs. For example, anytime I go back to Romania I pick up a ~6EUR prepaid Orange SIM card which has 2000 minutes, unlimited texts, and 6GB data with a bonus 120GB data on activation. According to https://esimdb.com/romania https://esimdb.com/romania, that same 6EUR offers 1GB of data. Is it more convenient? Sure, a bit. But it's nowhere near as cheap for most local SIMs.
- techsupporter 4y ago
  I have found that having a local number when I go to a new place is a big convenience. Doing things like ordering takeaway food online or trying to contact a hotel or some other service is a lot easier when not having to deal with an international call. Most of the travel eSIMs don't provide a local number (esim.net is the only one I can think of off the top of my head) but getting a SIM at a corner store after getting out of the airport always does.
  - WanderPanda 4y ago
    I recently used https://www.getnomad.app/ https://www.getnomad.app/ and it worked flawless. I like the convenience of enabling/disabling eSIM instead of fiddling with Sim Cards

zarzavat 4y ago

The markets where physical SIM swapping is most entrenched are exactly the markers where iPhones are minority products, i.e. the places that Apple has most potential for growth. Is the SIM tray really so important that that Apple is going to sacrifice those markets? I doubt it. So if Apple is tied to physical SIM for the foreseeable future, why bother trying to kill it? Feels like a butterfly keyboard moment.

mmoskal 4y ago
I believe they only kill SIM in US for now. Could be they keep it for a year or two more in other places until they adapt to eSIM.

azeemh 4y ago

no headphone port, no sd cards, no charger cables, now no sim cards, this is very much apple's locked down approach just further evolving. imagine they made the most useful, intuitive, and beautiful device instead of just the thinnest one?

threeseed 4y ago
Phones are a zero-sum game. Having features like headphone port and SD cards means you don't have space for other ones that are potentially more useful or popular. And the fact that the market quietly moved on from headphone ports, SD cards etc. shows that it was the right call. Physical SIM cards will unquestionably be the next to go.
- throwaway0x7E6 4y ago
- cowtools 4y ago
  >And the fact that the market quietly moved on from headphone ports, SD cards etc. shows that it was the right call. I doubt this. I think the market moved that way because it is more profitable to upsell users to wireless headphones or cloud storage or greater internal storage. Remember, apple releases airpods as they removed headphone jack? It does not necessarily represent an increase in utility on the customer side.
SpikeDad 4y ago
Yea. It's really put a dent in Apple's sales. Why do you think you are Apple's primary customer type? They want a solid phone with secure OS and App Store, no wires and they already have a dozen USB charging bricks. BTW The iPhone 14 Pro is actually thicker than the 13 - you know because they needed to put in a better camera and larger battery. And your snide comment is somehow implying that Android is more useful and intuitive? Hahah.
- cowtools 4y ago
  Android would more useful and intuitive because it has an actual file-system, and the android phones generally come with replaceable storage. This has been my personal experience using an iphone myself and helping my family with their iphones. I think apple purposefully increases camera resolution, prevents upgradable storage, and charges much more for increased storage, all in an effort to upsell users to their "iCloud" network storage service. My experience with the iOS store is that it is mostly crap. I go to look for a pdf editor, the first three options that come up are a "free download" trying to get me to to sign up for an overpriced subscription service to use the app. The Android store is also garbage, but there is at least f-droid which is good. The idea that iOS is somehow made more secure through the locked-down App Store and firmware is a prototypical case of security-by-obscurity. It has been trivial for law enforcement and other motivated groups to bypass iOS security measures. Operational Security is not some collection of marketable "features" or "solutions" that can be bought, it is a holistic mindset towards reducing risk and severity of cyber-attack. When you outsource the security of the device to a single all-powerful company, that is not good opsec. The find-my-iphone network is an example of this: is is an inescapable global surveillance network. to me, this reflects poorly on apple's security and privacy practices. The apple "ecosystem" is designed in a way to encourage the use of proprietary software such that apple can extract a fraction of sales revenue through their store. Apple is a very profitable company because they are good at inventing new reasons to charge their customers more. I don't think the price of the product reflects its underlying usefulness, intuitiveness or security. That being said, most android OEMs do ship a quite bloated, non-standard verison of android- this is analogous to PC OEMs that will install bloatware on any windows laptop they sell. This reflects quite poorly on the android ecosystem: the OEMs like samsung that most associate with "high-quality" smartphones are paradoxically the crappiest OEMs when it comes to software.

_8j50 4y ago

They need to ban this shit. I need to be able to pickup a $30 flip phone and get it working with my sim. Honestly, Apple has added a lot if features I dislike and since I pretty much gave up on mobile privacy/security I have been preferring them because of nice ux/hardware but this is too much for me. 5G and wifi can track my movements through walls, "find my device" will use a satellite to pin me down if my account is pwned, businesses and employers are requiring these tracking devices. This shit is too messed up. I am gonna be moving to laptops and flip phones completely (except now esim threatens them as well). Please let me know if there are non-profits that lobby and promote liberty and privacy preserving tech. That aside I will write lawmakers I guess what other way is there to enact laws that tell apple and pals to fuck off with that shit?

cowtools 4y ago
Sure, phones have been moving in a terrible direction in terms of privacy, but I don't really see what the difference here is with eSim. Your modem can communicate with cell towers regardless of whether it has a SIM connected.
- _8j50 4y ago
  It means i can't switch to a more private phone easily. For example I sometimes move my sim to a flip phone with only 4g now I won't be able to do that without contacting the carrier and jumping through hoops. They are enforcing sims as a permanent thing so it is more inconvenient for consumers and more costly for smaller device makers.

SpikeDad 4y ago

I'm constantly chuckling at the underestimation of Apple's influence in the US and worldwide. Do you really think all of the cellular providers and resellers are not at this moment reviewing their business model and giving strong consideration to supporting eSIM activation? The folio of "stupid" ideas that people claim Apple adopted which are now readily adopted by many Android phone purveyors is substantial. No one spends more money on all consumer products domestically and internationally than Apple users especially folks with a new phone. We shall see how many "cheap" SIM purveyors suddenly figure out a way to go eSIM. In the meantime I'll take the increased security (now my SMS 2FA is a lot more secure than before) and one less opening for dust and moisture to get inside. I can't wait to send my first Satellite message...

mdmglr 4y ago
IT has nothing to do with carriers supporting eSIM or not. With eSIM comes activation processes where carriers can make pricing decisions. Have an iPhone or coming from the US? There's a different higher price for you. Today you can buy a sim at any carrier store or cell shop around the world and insert it into your phone. Zero hassle. Fair pricing. eSIM opens the floodgates for carriers to lock you in or implement stupid rules. I bet Verizon and ATT are salivating the ability to lock down the eSIM. Also eSIM being less hackable than the SIM? Time will tell. Im sure the NSO Group is already working on that.
- intev 4y ago
  > Today you can buy a sim at any carrier store or cell shop around the world and insert it into your phone. Zero hassle. The exact same is possible is with an e-sim. Have you ever used an e-sim? It's literally a QR code the carrier hands you that you need to scan. You can scan it with any e-sim compatible phone. This is the equivalent of "inserting the sim into any phone" except without the actual insertion. > I bet Verizon and ATT are salivating the ability to lock down the eSIM. Assuming you are a new iPhone user? ATT locked the sim down for iphones in the first few years. Not sure how it is now, but earlier I couldnt use my phone with any other carrier unless I begged ATT to unlock it. I once had to show them my travel documents to say that I just needed it for a short while so I can use a foreign sim on what they considered their phone. So this is nothing new, and e-sim doesnt improve or worsen the situation.

ericbarrett 4y ago

I see a lot of concern here and elsewhere about getting local pre-paid SIMs when traveling. Wouldn't widespread eSIM support be a boon for those carriers? As I understand it all they need is a thin app and a sign-up process. It's not a high barrier to entry and most pre-paid markets are very competitive, so I think there soon will be many choices. (The iPhone won't be the last to drop the physical SIM port.) The real losers will be the corner stores.

8ytecoder 4y ago
It already exists. There is both Truphone and Airalo that I’ve used and actually quite liked. Much easier than finding a store to buy a sim. You can literally just activate it at the airport with WiFi. Also how I tested a domestic carrier before switching over, I didn’t have to order a sim and wait 10 days. This is a non-issue.
daveoc64 4y ago
How do you use an app without a data connection? A physical SIM requires no data connection to use. You can collect it from a vending machine, put it in your device and it works immediately. Carriers often don't let people outside of the country sign up for service - even prepaid. Perhaps in the long run we'll see consumer-friendly options, but so far, carriers all over the world have shown how anti-consumer eSIM can be. They have many new found opportunities to restrict competition, consumer choice, and make additional profit from unfair charges.

cutierust 4y ago

Surely there is an esim to nano sim adapter? And an adapter for connecting this adapter to computer for programming it?

AdamJacobMuller 4y ago
physical SIMs are an HSM which contains private key data which it will answer challenges for but not divulge.
drdaeman 4y ago
Nope. If you want to convert a SIM card (micro, nano or whatever size, they're all the same thing just differently cut plastic part) to eSIM you're SOL. Unless maybe if you have a very ancient SIM card that you've refused to upgrade (but then you're probably without LTE). The reverse might be theoretically possible during activation (if you feed the QR code to your own custom device and your software implementation doesn't guard the keys, letting you copy those freely), but I suspect there is some form of attestation so it won't let you activate with anything but "trusted" devices (by network, not yourself). And if eSIM is already activated on a phone, you most likely won't be able to extract the keys, because those are most likely protected with some sort of secure element.
- gst 4y ago
  > The reverse might be theoretically possible during activation (if you feed the QR code to your own custom device and your software implementation doesn't guard the keys, letting you copy those freely), but I suspect there is some form of attestation so it won't let you activate with anything but "trusted" devices (by network, not yourself). There are programmable SIM cards available that allow you to install an eSIM from a QR code. Those SIM cards can then be used in any phone that doesn't officially support eSIMs: https://esim.me/ https://esim.me/
  - cutierust 4y ago
    Sorry i wasn't clear but this is what I was talking about so yeah

shalmanese 4y ago

> Since then, all iPhone models launched since then have eSIM support. Slight nitpick: Except those in Greater China which ship with dual nano-SIM slots and have no support for eSIM (even on iPhone 14). iPhone 14 shipped in the rest of the world have 1 physical SIM slot and support for either physical + eSIM or two eSIMs. I don't know engineering wise why China model phones can't ship with both dual physical slots and support any combo of two physical/eSIM. There doesn't appear to be any obvious technical limitation.

gst 4y ago
> I don't know engineering wise why China model phones can't ship with both dual physical slots and support any combo of two physical/eSIM. There doesn't appear to be any obvious technical limitation. As far as I know Chinese carriers don't support eSIMs for smartphones yet. I'm not sure if Apple would have been able to legally ship eSIM support in China, but even if they would be able to do that it would be an additional cost for a feature that nearly none of their customers there would use.
- DivineBicycle 4y ago
  I don't believe they do as when I asked the people in the China Univom shop them had no idea what I was talking about.
- shalmanese 4y ago
  According to Apple, the following carriers in Greater China support eSIM while all iPhones sold there don't support eSIM: Hong Kong 1O1O 3 csl China Mobile Hong Kong SmarTone --- Taiwan APT Chunghwa Telecom Far EasTone Taiwan Mobile Taiwan Star Truphone --- Macao CTM

gumby 4y ago

I wish I could have two eSIMs on my watch as I now can on my phone. As it is I have to disable phone service on my watch when traveling. That being said I still need a SIM card slot because I visit countries with no eSIM carriers.

Vibgyor5 4y ago

This is an extremely short-sighted move by Apple with no upside to the customer: - Traveling abroad will be a hassle: Multiple countries (and especially smaller carriers) *do not* offer eSIM functionality (and/or it is more cumbersome to get than advertized). Planning a trip to a developing country? You're in for a surprisedpikachu face when your expensive device $800-1000 can't use basic phone functionality compared to a basic $100 phone. Step outside the international airport in Cambodia (like I did just a few days back) and ask for eSIM - and you're going to get stares. Physical SIM is the way to go in developing and under-developed countries. - "But I can just use an app!" argument does not work: Sure you can. There are apps like Airalo and others but - they're often targeted around offering data only and are often more expensive than buying a local physical SIM. - Moving abroad with new iPhone will be a challenge: Good chunk of regular business travelers or expats living in developing countries. I actually know a girl who moved to India for a couple months' project and was trying to set up eSIM with a carrier in India for days. Physical SIM took 5 minutes to swap!

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razemio 4y ago
It is very naive to think it will stay this way. Now that Apple made this move, cell providers in any country will be forced to provide e-sims to stay in business. Apple has such a huge influence it won't take years but months even if it only targets us smartphones. Other phone manufacturers will follow this decision sooner than later.
- AussieWog93 4y ago
  I don't think the average phone provider in Cambodia will worry too much about the list revenue from not supporting a particular variant of iPhone 14.
  - cowtools 4y ago
    It will eventually trickle into the low-end android market, especially if it can be used to save cost.

rock_artist 4y ago

One implication not considered with eSIM is that not the SIM is indeed virtual. if something happens to the device... you need to do much more to get yourself up and running. An example, my wife dropped her phone and her screen is now completely broken. phone unusable. When the phone has a physical SIM, I can simply take out the SIM and put it in a backup/older phone. With eSIM only, I need to: contact the carrier or have an additional phone with additional "backup" sim.

withinboredom 4y ago
Same happened to my sons phone, but it has an esim. I pulled out the original sim paper, scanned the QR code, entered the confirmation and SIM pin. Bam, it was transferred instantly to the new phone. It was easier than a traditional sim, simply because I didn’t have to create or find a tool to open the sim tray.
- rcarmo 4y ago
  No, but you do have to keep the original paper around, assuming you got one in the first place. Those things easily get junked or misplaced.
  - withinboredom 4y ago
    You can also go online to do it in like three clicks, but you have to verify stuff to get the QR code. And don’t you keep the original paper the physical sim comes on for the PUK?
    - rcarmo 4y ago
      I make a note of the PUK and IMSI in the family OneNote. Have so for years.
      - withinboredom 4y ago
        Nothing stopping you from storing the QR code either.

Gys 4y ago

Will the phone only have one esim? Currently I use both the esim AND the physical sim of my phone. Very convenient and therefore a feature that is very dear to me. Edit: seems the phone can support up to 8 esims :-)

kotaKat 4y ago

My problem with eSIM only is as a private network architect (working with open source LTE EPC stuff, for instance), I don't know exactly where the hell I can go to get an eSIM cut for our test networks. I can't figure out what eSIM personalization/etc providers will even take on such a small use case like myself where I just need to have an eSIM provisioned and get my authentication values to throw into the core network. This is going to screw over a lot of private LTE deployments on CBRS if there's no good way to cut eSIMs for this use.

mamcx 4y ago

The fear (for me) is that this make a blow for pre-paid. I have never get a plan in all this years, and wanna stay like that. But this stuff make even more easy(?) to force to get into one (the amount of SPAM I get for my carrier to please pay monthly is amazing, and with this stuff I worry if will be easier to get trapped). P.D: I reluctantly use cellphone, mostly for development (I made mobile apps), and rarely if ever move out.

scrubs 4y ago

Android here ... Was in Europe recently and was gonna esim my way into connectivity there. Then realized no support. My next Android phone better have esim. Instead I had to buy sims over a taxi ride to store and back and back by having the taxi wait outside cause I could not phone for a new one in the small chance I couldn't get the new sim to work.

johncalvinyoung 4y ago

Ugh. I'm not planning on updating this cycle, but eSIM + physical SIM was best of both worlds for me, as a US user who travels internationally. Carriers in my most common European destination do not offer eSIM or restrict it solely to long-term monthly accounts... whereas I could pick up a rolling month-to-month SIM card with a great local plan super easily before. Sure, maybe by the time I upgrade next more carriers will be offering it. But it's definitely a current downside and one which I expect will be exploited for market segmentation in future.