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That's a non-answer unless customers can meaningfully choose where/how to obtain their regular water supply and how much to pay for it. I'm genuinely curious if

That's a non-answer unless customers can meaningfully choose where/how to obtain their regular water supply and how much to pay for it. I'm genuinely curious if that's true in any modern cities. Edit: Santiago in Chile seems to be close to such a case. Interestingly, 70% of the population want to see a return to public ownership of water rights. And it's pretty hard to find evidence having private ownership of water rights is helping ensure long term supply for all.

WalterBright 4y ago
Has public ownership shown it's better?
- wizofaus 4y ago
  There's far too few data points to make a meaningful comparison - but water supply has been a public good since Assyrian times. I was only objecting to your claim that if the price of water was somehow established via the free market it would magically ensure it never ran out.
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    Supply&Demand can indeed appear to work like magic. Increasing the price causes demand to drop. Increasing it so the demand matches the supply means no shortage.
    - wizofaus 4y ago
      How someone clearly intelligent enough to design parts at Boeing can parrot statements like that does my head in. I'm not an economist at all, but I have at least a passing familiarity with elasticity of demand (which is pretty damn low for water, given it's a basic biological need with zero satisfactory substitutes, and that the excess use of brings little immediate gratification). If you want to claim higher prices for water guarantee that free enterprise will always invest what's necessary to ensure its availability I'd like to see the evidence for it.
      - nickpp 4y ago
        The fact that you are so nonchalantly dismissing the statement of someone like Walter should make you take a long hard look at yourself, your beliefs and your though processes. Water usage is just as elastic as any other consumption behavior. Heck, I halved mine this year by simply selectively letting parts of my yard dry up in this hot summer. And enterprises can pass increased prices on to the final product.
        wizofaus 4y ago
        No, it's simply not - most items we consume are not biological needs and do have reasonable substitutes. Obviously there's scope for many of us to reduce our water usage, and I don't doubt increasing the price is one way of achieving that. But if you want to claim that a free market for water will guarantee there's always sufficient supply for a given population, then it's fair to ask for evidence.
        WalterBright 4y ago
        Some years ago, there was a drought in Seattle. The government instituted a lawn watering ban to cope with it. Some rich people didn't want their lawns to go brown, so an entrepreneur rented some tanker trucks, filled them up outside the region, drove back to Seattle, and watered their lawns. This caused a hue and cry about how unfair this was, and another ordinance was passed to make it illegal to truck water in. However, it is exactly what you asked for - an example of the free market delivering when the price is high enough. As for biological needs, I recommend reading "Empire of the Summer Moon" about how the Comanche were able able to survive in the desert. This included killing their horses and drinking the contents of their stomachs as an example of how far they would go to get water. Besides, biological drinking water is only a tiny, tiny fraction of human water consumption. Another example, when there are natural disasters, entrepreneurs would truck in bottled water and gasoline and sell it (until the government put a stop to that, too).
    - lozenge 4y ago
      "Look, your business is going bankrupt because it's now too expensive to water your crops compared to the price they would fetch if sold, but that doesn't mean there's a water shortage! You just can't afford it!"
      - nickpp 4y ago
        Enterprises have to cope with price increases all the time. My friends building houses have seen the price for iron multiplying over the year, but construction still goes on. Some businesses die but the others adapt and find solutions. It’s where human creativity and innovation shines. An expensive item is a great motivator to find alternatives.
        wizofaus 4y ago
        And without water, some people die but the others...wash less and let their gardens and crops die? What sort of alternative do you think expensive water would be a great motivator for us to find?
        WalterBright 4y ago
        Desalination plants, for example.
        wizofaus 4y ago
        We have those in Australia. Free enterprise had nothing to do with it, in fact it would have been a terrible investment (and yes, it was a a questionable use of taxpayer money, at least so far). But that you could supply a city the size and distance from the ocean of Phoenix with affordable constant supply of water with desalination plants seems a stretch.
        nickpp 4y ago
        And without food, some people die but it was the free markets who brought us this incredible array of cheaper and cheaper options while planned economies couldn't keep their citizens from starving.

WalterBright 4y ago

Has public ownership shown it's better?

wizofaus 4y ago
There's far too few data points to make a meaningful comparison - but water supply has been a public good since Assyrian times. I was only objecting to your claim that if the price of water was somehow established via the free market it would magically ensure it never ran out.
- WalterBright 4y ago
  Supply&Demand can indeed appear to work like magic. Increasing the price causes demand to drop. Increasing it so the demand matches the supply means no shortage.
  - wizofaus 4y ago
    How someone clearly intelligent enough to design parts at Boeing can parrot statements like that does my head in. I'm not an economist at all, but I have at least a passing familiarity with elasticity of demand (which is pretty damn low for water, given it's a basic biological need with zero satisfactory substitutes, and that the excess use of brings little immediate gratification). If you want to claim higher prices for water guarantee that free enterprise will always invest what's necessary to ensure its availability I'd like to see the evidence for it.
    - nickpp 4y ago
      The fact that you are so nonchalantly dismissing the statement of someone like Walter should make you take a long hard look at yourself, your beliefs and your though processes. Water usage is just as elastic as any other consumption behavior. Heck, I halved mine this year by simply selectively letting parts of my yard dry up in this hot summer. And enterprises can pass increased prices on to the final product.
      - wizofaus 4y ago
        No, it's simply not - most items we consume are not biological needs and do have reasonable substitutes. Obviously there's scope for many of us to reduce our water usage, and I don't doubt increasing the price is one way of achieving that. But if you want to claim that a free market for water will guarantee there's always sufficient supply for a given population, then it's fair to ask for evidence.
        WalterBright 4y ago
        Some years ago, there was a drought in Seattle. The government instituted a lawn watering ban to cope with it. Some rich people didn't want their lawns to go brown, so an entrepreneur rented some tanker trucks, filled them up outside the region, drove back to Seattle, and watered their lawns. This caused a hue and cry about how unfair this was, and another ordinance was passed to make it illegal to truck water in. However, it is exactly what you asked for - an example of the free market delivering when the price is high enough. As for biological needs, I recommend reading "Empire of the Summer Moon" about how the Comanche were able able to survive in the desert. This included killing their horses and drinking the contents of their stomachs as an example of how far they would go to get water. Besides, biological drinking water is only a tiny, tiny fraction of human water consumption. Another example, when there are natural disasters, entrepreneurs would truck in bottled water and gasoline and sell it (until the government put a stop to that, too).
  - lozenge 4y ago
    "Look, your business is going bankrupt because it's now too expensive to water your crops compared to the price they would fetch if sold, but that doesn't mean there's a water shortage! You just can't afford it!"
    - nickpp 4y ago
      Enterprises have to cope with price increases all the time. My friends building houses have seen the price for iron multiplying over the year, but construction still goes on. Some businesses die but the others adapt and find solutions. It’s where human creativity and innovation shines. An expensive item is a great motivator to find alternatives.
      - wizofaus 4y ago
        And without water, some people die but the others...wash less and let their gardens and crops die? What sort of alternative do you think expensive water would be a great motivator for us to find?
        WalterBright 4y ago
        Desalination plants, for example.
        wizofaus 4y ago
        We have those in Australia. Free enterprise had nothing to do with it, in fact it would have been a terrible investment (and yes, it was a a questionable use of taxpayer money, at least so far). But that you could supply a city the size and distance from the ocean of Phoenix with affordable constant supply of water with desalination plants seems a stretch.
        nickpp 4y ago
        And without food, some people die but it was the free markets who brought us this incredible array of cheaper and cheaper options while planned economies couldn't keep their citizens from starving.