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Yeah, especially young people do have it bad. One interesting thing is that as society becomes more and more feminist, it's the young women who fare the worst,

Yeah, especially young people do have it bad. One interesting thing is that as society becomes more and more feminist, it's the young women who fare the worst, and especially the demographics most likely to be intersectional activists. Maybe not all ideologies are good for us? At a quick glance, a lot of the intersectional feminist/activist modes of thought seem to be the polar opposites of what eg. cognitive behavioral therapy and the stoicism it's inspired by advocate (eg. others are responsible for your emotional reactions/state, so to control your mood you have to control others vs. you are responsible for and in control of your own emotional reactions and mental state and you can improve your mood by honing yourself). We know CBT is effective for getting rid of dysfunctional thought patterns and lessening mental health symptoms. In that light, these numbers seem unfortunate but entirely predictable. https://i.imgur.com/uRX0A9u.png https://i.imgur.com/uRX0A9u.png

depr 4y ago
CBT is not effective for lessening mental health symptoms. See e.g. https://doi.org/10.1192/bjp.bp.116.187773 https://doi.org/10.1192/bjp.bp.116.187773 >the difference between CBT and pill placebo was a standardised mean difference of –0.22 The effect measured in this meta-analysis is a less than two point drop on a 52 point scale (Hamilton Rating Scale for Depression). That is not clinically significant.
- soundnote 4y ago
  Interesting. Will take a look, thanks.
- johnfernow 4y ago
  From the study you linked: > Our study has limitations. First, detection of an interaction effect requires a large sample size. The present findings require replication with a larger sample of trials designed to test the interaction. The trials from which the data were extracted were not designed to test this hypothesis, but do provide a ‘first look’ into this question using all available data. Given the wide confidence interval around zero for the interaction coefficient in the present study, it is possible that our finding represents a type II error. Although none of the sensitivity analyses were suggestive of possible interaction effects, future studies may nonetheless still reveal an interaction that we failed to detect in the data available to us... ⁣ I'd be very cautious about saying "CBT is not effective for lessening mental health symptoms" due to a single study. From the American Psychological Association [1]: > Cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) is a form of psychological treatment that has been demonstrated to be effective for a range of problems including depression, anxiety disorders, alcohol and drug use problems, marital problems, eating disorders, and severe mental illness. Numerous research studies suggest that CBT leads to significant improvement in functioning and quality of life. In many studies, CBT has been demonstrated to be as effective as, or more effective than, other forms of psychological therapy or psychiatric medications. ⁣ From the NHS [2]: > Cognitive behavioural therapy (CBT) can be as effective as medicine in treating some mental health problems, but it may not be successful or suitable for everyone. ⁣ From the Cleveland Clinic [3]: > Cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) is a structured, goal-oriented type of psychotherapy (talk therapy). Mental health professionals, including psychologists, therapists and counselors, use it to treat or manage mental health conditions and emotional concerns. It’s one of the most common and best-studied forms of psychotherapy. ⁣ I'm not at all suggesting that we blindly trust those organizations, rather just cautioning saying it is no more effective than a pill placebo due to one study. ⁣ A different study that reviewed meta-analyses came to quite a different conclusion [4]: > In our review of meta-analyses, CBT tailored to children showed robust support for treating internalizing disorders, with benefits outweighing pharmacological approaches in mood and anxiety symptoms. The evidence was more mixed for externalizing disorders, chronic pain, or problems following abuse. Moreover, there remains a need for a greater number of high-quality trials in demographically diverse samples. Similarly, CBT was moderately efficacious for the treatment of emotional symptoms in the elderly, but no conclusions about long-term outcomes of CBT or combination therapies consisting of CBT, and medication could be made. > > Finally, our review identified 11 studies that compared response rates between CBT and other treatments or control conditions. In 7 of these reviews, CBT showed higher response rates than the comparison conditions, and in only one review (Leichsenring & Leibig, 2003), which was conducted by authors with a psychodynamic orientation, reported that CBT had lower response rates than comparison treatments. > > In sum, our review of meta-analytic studies examining the efficacy of CBT demonstrated that this treatment has been used for a wide range of psychological problems. In general, the evidence-base of CBT is very strong, and especially for treating anxiety disorders. However, despite the enormous literature base, there is still a clear need for high-quality studies examining the efficacy of CBT. Furthermore, the efficacy of CBT is questionable for some problems, which suggests that further improvements in CBT strategies are still needed. In addition, many of the meta-analytic studies included studies with small sample sizes or inadequate control groups. Moreover, except for children and elderly populations, no meta-analytic studies of CBT have been reported on particular subgroups, such as ethnic minorities and low income samples. > > Despite these weaknesses in some areas, it is clear that the evidence-base of CBT is enormous. Given the high cost-effectiveness of the intervention, it is surprising that many countries, including many developed nations, have not yet adopted CBT as the first-line intervention for mental disorders. A notable exception is the Improving Access to Psychological Therapies initiative by the National Health Commissioning in the United Kingdom (Rachman & Wilson, 2008). We believe that it is time that others follow suit. 1. https://www.apa.org/ptsd-guideline/patients-and-families/cognitive-behavioral https://www.apa.org/ptsd-guideline/patients-and-families/cog... 2. https://www.nhs.uk/mental-health/talking-therapies-medicine-treatments/talking-therapies-and-counselling/cognitive-behavioural-therapy-cbt/overview/ https://www.nhs.uk/mental-health/talking-therapies-medicine-... 3. https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/treatments/21208-cognitive-behavioral-therapy-cbt https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/treatments/21208-cogni... 4. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3584580/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3584580/ edit: formatting
  - depr 4y ago
    >rather just cautioning saying it is no more effective than a pill placebo due to one study. It is not one study, it is a meta-analysis. The quotes from the meta-analysis you mention do not show mention anything concrete; there are words and phrases like "robust", "evidence-base is very strong", "higher response rate". They barely tell you anything. One needs to see the numbers, not the researchers interpretation of them.
galdosdi 4y ago
> At a quick glance, a lot of the intersectional feminist/activist modes of thought seem to be the polar opposites of what eg. cognitive behavioral therapy What a non sequitur. Why would feminism and stoicism have any incompatibilities?
- MandieD 4y ago
  For me, they're absolutely complementary. If I'm the only thing I can really control, how can I do so without the right to make my own decisions beyond whether or not to accept a marriage proposal? Before feminism, married women were legally children, at least in the parts of the world I've lived in (US and Germany). In the state I live in, Bavaria, my husband could have prevented me from getting a driver's license or working up until about 1970. A woman fighting against feminism is a woman fighting against responsibility for herself.
- soundnote 4y ago
  I literally gave one example in the post you quoted. The intersectional types are vehemently against owning your emotional responses in the way stoicism advocates, and instead actively encourage finding more and more ever more minute things that might be rationalized to be a slight against themselves. On a deeper level, stoicism acknowledges and is built on the idea that not everything in the world is changeable, while the intersectional mode of thought is exactly the opposite.
  - 8note 4y ago
    Stoicism makes no sense in that case? How can you own your emotions if you are unchangeable? A stoic would consider the world as perfect as it is if it is unchangeable. Everyone is a stoic in that case, including the intersectionist types
  - 7952 4y ago
    Activisim is a more masculine way of thinking. Stoicism more feminine. As society changes these different modes of thinking get more and more mixed up and seperated from preassigned roles. That could be quite a positive thing. I think we benefit from both. Sometimes passion and anger is needed to change your life and the situation. And sometimes you need to just accept the world as it is. And in something like race/sexism we need a little bit of both. Prejudice is bad, but not all prejudiced people are bad. We should be able to identify it, address it and move on without it being a big taboo that gets people in lots of trouble.

depr 4y ago

CBT is not effective for lessening mental health symptoms. See e.g. https://doi.org/10.1192/bjp.bp.116.187773 https://doi.org/10.1192/bjp.bp.116.187773 >the difference between CBT and pill placebo was a standardised mean difference of –0.22 The effect measured in this meta-analysis is a less than two point drop on a 52 point scale (Hamilton Rating Scale for Depression). That is not clinically significant.

soundnote 4y ago
Interesting. Will take a look, thanks.
johnfernow 4y ago
From the study you linked: > Our study has limitations. First, detection of an interaction effect requires a large sample size. The present findings require replication with a larger sample of trials designed to test the interaction. The trials from which the data were extracted were not designed to test this hypothesis, but do provide a ‘first look’ into this question using all available data. Given the wide confidence interval around zero for the interaction coefficient in the present study, it is possible that our finding represents a type II error. Although none of the sensitivity analyses were suggestive of possible interaction effects, future studies may nonetheless still reveal an interaction that we failed to detect in the data available to us... ⁣ I'd be very cautious about saying "CBT is not effective for lessening mental health symptoms" due to a single study. From the American Psychological Association [1]: > Cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) is a form of psychological treatment that has been demonstrated to be effective for a range of problems including depression, anxiety disorders, alcohol and drug use problems, marital problems, eating disorders, and severe mental illness. Numerous research studies suggest that CBT leads to significant improvement in functioning and quality of life. In many studies, CBT has been demonstrated to be as effective as, or more effective than, other forms of psychological therapy or psychiatric medications. ⁣ From the NHS [2]: > Cognitive behavioural therapy (CBT) can be as effective as medicine in treating some mental health problems, but it may not be successful or suitable for everyone. ⁣ From the Cleveland Clinic [3]: > Cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) is a structured, goal-oriented type of psychotherapy (talk therapy). Mental health professionals, including psychologists, therapists and counselors, use it to treat or manage mental health conditions and emotional concerns. It’s one of the most common and best-studied forms of psychotherapy. ⁣ I'm not at all suggesting that we blindly trust those organizations, rather just cautioning saying it is no more effective than a pill placebo due to one study. ⁣ A different study that reviewed meta-analyses came to quite a different conclusion [4]: > In our review of meta-analyses, CBT tailored to children showed robust support for treating internalizing disorders, with benefits outweighing pharmacological approaches in mood and anxiety symptoms. The evidence was more mixed for externalizing disorders, chronic pain, or problems following abuse. Moreover, there remains a need for a greater number of high-quality trials in demographically diverse samples. Similarly, CBT was moderately efficacious for the treatment of emotional symptoms in the elderly, but no conclusions about long-term outcomes of CBT or combination therapies consisting of CBT, and medication could be made. > > Finally, our review identified 11 studies that compared response rates between CBT and other treatments or control conditions. In 7 of these reviews, CBT showed higher response rates than the comparison conditions, and in only one review (Leichsenring & Leibig, 2003), which was conducted by authors with a psychodynamic orientation, reported that CBT had lower response rates than comparison treatments. > > In sum, our review of meta-analytic studies examining the efficacy of CBT demonstrated that this treatment has been used for a wide range of psychological problems. In general, the evidence-base of CBT is very strong, and especially for treating anxiety disorders. However, despite the enormous literature base, there is still a clear need for high-quality studies examining the efficacy of CBT. Furthermore, the efficacy of CBT is questionable for some problems, which suggests that further improvements in CBT strategies are still needed. In addition, many of the meta-analytic studies included studies with small sample sizes or inadequate control groups. Moreover, except for children and elderly populations, no meta-analytic studies of CBT have been reported on particular subgroups, such as ethnic minorities and low income samples. > > Despite these weaknesses in some areas, it is clear that the evidence-base of CBT is enormous. Given the high cost-effectiveness of the intervention, it is surprising that many countries, including many developed nations, have not yet adopted CBT as the first-line intervention for mental disorders. A notable exception is the Improving Access to Psychological Therapies initiative by the National Health Commissioning in the United Kingdom (Rachman & Wilson, 2008). We believe that it is time that others follow suit. 1. https://www.apa.org/ptsd-guideline/patients-and-families/cognitive-behavioral https://www.apa.org/ptsd-guideline/patients-and-families/cog... 2. https://www.nhs.uk/mental-health/talking-therapies-medicine-treatments/talking-therapies-and-counselling/cognitive-behavioural-therapy-cbt/overview/ https://www.nhs.uk/mental-health/talking-therapies-medicine-... 3. https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/treatments/21208-cognitive-behavioral-therapy-cbt https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/treatments/21208-cogni... 4. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3584580/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3584580/ edit: formatting
- depr 4y ago
  >rather just cautioning saying it is no more effective than a pill placebo due to one study. It is not one study, it is a meta-analysis. The quotes from the meta-analysis you mention do not show mention anything concrete; there are words and phrases like "robust", "evidence-base is very strong", "higher response rate". They barely tell you anything. One needs to see the numbers, not the researchers interpretation of them.

galdosdi 4y ago

> At a quick glance, a lot of the intersectional feminist/activist modes of thought seem to be the polar opposites of what eg. cognitive behavioral therapy What a non sequitur. Why would feminism and stoicism have any incompatibilities?

MandieD 4y ago
For me, they're absolutely complementary. If I'm the only thing I can really control, how can I do so without the right to make my own decisions beyond whether or not to accept a marriage proposal? Before feminism, married women were legally children, at least in the parts of the world I've lived in (US and Germany). In the state I live in, Bavaria, my husband could have prevented me from getting a driver's license or working up until about 1970. A woman fighting against feminism is a woman fighting against responsibility for herself.
soundnote 4y ago
I literally gave one example in the post you quoted. The intersectional types are vehemently against owning your emotional responses in the way stoicism advocates, and instead actively encourage finding more and more ever more minute things that might be rationalized to be a slight against themselves. On a deeper level, stoicism acknowledges and is built on the idea that not everything in the world is changeable, while the intersectional mode of thought is exactly the opposite.
- 8note 4y ago
  Stoicism makes no sense in that case? How can you own your emotions if you are unchangeable? A stoic would consider the world as perfect as it is if it is unchangeable. Everyone is a stoic in that case, including the intersectionist types
- 7952 4y ago
  Activisim is a more masculine way of thinking. Stoicism more feminine. As society changes these different modes of thinking get more and more mixed up and seperated from preassigned roles. That could be quite a positive thing. I think we benefit from both. Sometimes passion and anger is needed to change your life and the situation. And sometimes you need to just accept the world as it is. And in something like race/sexism we need a little bit of both. Prejudice is bad, but not all prejudiced people are bad. We should be able to identify it, address it and move on without it being a big taboo that gets people in lots of trouble.