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> It makes sense for Europeans to experience ludicrous natural gas bills, but not someone in NY. It's a globally traded commodity. If someone in NY won't pay 4

> It makes sense for Europeans to experience ludicrous natural gas bills, but not someone in NY. It's a globally traded commodity. If someone in NY won't pay 40% more, someone in Europe will. Just like you work for who gives you the most compelling offer, so too does natural gas go to who presents the most compelling offer. > the US should not make citizens suffer in order to prop up European nations Given that the US is where most of the natural gas is produced, per your comment, the US will realize a huge windfall by shipping its product to Europe at a high markup. The citizens of the US will be emboldened by it. They may have to pay more for heat, but stand to gain even more than that. Europe loses either way.

Alupis 4y ago
> The citizens of the US will be emboldened by it. They may have to pay more for heat, but stand to gain even more than that. I have to disagree here. The citizens of the US gain nothing from the US permitting natural gas companies to export to Europe instead of filling local demand first. These are private companies anyway... so not sure how this logic holds up. > It's a globally traded commodity. Sure it is... however a nation can and will prohibit exports when local demand exceeds available reserves. Natural gas is a strategic asset after all, and we're already dangerously dancing with inflation/recession - it wouldn't make sense to accelerate that path just because Europe needs gas after a series of terrible, completely avoidable choices.
- randomdata 4y ago
  > however a nation can and will prohibit exports when local demand exceeds available reserves. Sure. There is no doubt a tipping point. Seeing 100% exports wouldn't work. But the nation of the US is made up of its citizens, so only when the citizens start to feel that tipping point has nearing or has occurred will they take measures to prohibit such exports. Clearly we're not there. There is still more upside than downside.
  - Alupis 4y ago
    I think in theory you would be right, but practically Joe Biden isn't going to ask regular citizens if he should allow export of Natural Gas to European nations. Majority of citizens just accept the half-truth that Putin's War caused high gas (both natural and petroleum) for everyone, and that there's nothing that can be done except end the war. Europe needs to suffer for their poor decisions. Enough of the US swooping in and solving European mistakes... then getting villainized for being the world's safety net.
    - randomdata 4y ago
      > but practically Joe Biden isn't going to ask regular citizens if he should allow export of Natural Gas to European nations. No, that isn't practical. Which is why government is set up in reverse: The citizens tell Biden what they want. The citizens are the boss, after all. It stands to reason that the message comes down from the boss. Except that isn't practical either, so middlemen are employed to combine and distill the information they receive from the boss into a more digestible form that can be presented in a practical manner to the worker. Those middlemen are chosen by the citizens through a long and arduous process to ensure that they are trustworthy enough to accurately convey the desired message to the worker on the ground. Yes, theoretically an unscrupulous middleman could spread false information, but through hundreds of years of using this system the citizens have shown to have a strong degree of confidence in the effectiveness of the selection process. Not only do they have confidence, but they also find utility. It would be downright silly to go to all of the trouble of selecting the most trustworthy middleman and hire him, at a decent rate of pay I might add, only to never use his services. The citizens recognize the value they get by hiring these people to pass their orders to the workers. You personally may have no use for said middlemen as you management style sees you sit back and forever wait for Biden to knock on your door, but citizens (plural) is inherently about more than you.
      - Alupis 4y ago
        > Which is why government is set up in reverse: The citizens tell Biden what they want. The citizens are the boss, after all Again, that's some great theory, and it's how it's supposed to work, but it doesn't. If it did, the government wouldn't be busy misdirecting reasons why the prices are ludicrous - ie, they have to sell a fake narrative to the general population, and most of the population won't question authority. This is, in principal, why things like the electoral college exist - the framers knew the general population was busy living their own lives and either wouldn't pay enough attention or would deliberately be misled for political gain. So while yes the government eventually answers to the people, and in theory election outcomes will be based on what people want - the problem is when the people are deliberately misled and then vote based off half-truths and lies, which is what's going on here. High natural and petroleum gas prices are the Administration's own doing - the result of explicit domestic and foreign policy decisions the executive and team have made... but they've done a great job convincing casual voters they had nothing to do with it. That's where the way government is supposed to work starts to fall apart.
- Spooky23 4y ago
  That would be true if all things remain equal and the world didn’t consist of independent agents. The world is not that way. You shut off the gas, and the counterparty says “Ok, enjoy our new 150% tariff on software, vehicles and soy”.

Alupis 4y ago

> The citizens of the US will be emboldened by it. They may have to pay more for heat, but stand to gain even more than that. I have to disagree here. The citizens of the US gain nothing from the US permitting natural gas companies to export to Europe instead of filling local demand first. These are private companies anyway... so not sure how this logic holds up. > It's a globally traded commodity. Sure it is... however a nation can and will prohibit exports when local demand exceeds available reserves. Natural gas is a strategic asset after all, and we're already dangerously dancing with inflation/recession - it wouldn't make sense to accelerate that path just because Europe needs gas after a series of terrible, completely avoidable choices.

randomdata 4y ago
> however a nation can and will prohibit exports when local demand exceeds available reserves. Sure. There is no doubt a tipping point. Seeing 100% exports wouldn't work. But the nation of the US is made up of its citizens, so only when the citizens start to feel that tipping point has nearing or has occurred will they take measures to prohibit such exports. Clearly we're not there. There is still more upside than downside.
- Alupis 4y ago
  I think in theory you would be right, but practically Joe Biden isn't going to ask regular citizens if he should allow export of Natural Gas to European nations. Majority of citizens just accept the half-truth that Putin's War caused high gas (both natural and petroleum) for everyone, and that there's nothing that can be done except end the war. Europe needs to suffer for their poor decisions. Enough of the US swooping in and solving European mistakes... then getting villainized for being the world's safety net.
  - randomdata 4y ago
    > but practically Joe Biden isn't going to ask regular citizens if he should allow export of Natural Gas to European nations. No, that isn't practical. Which is why government is set up in reverse: The citizens tell Biden what they want. The citizens are the boss, after all. It stands to reason that the message comes down from the boss. Except that isn't practical either, so middlemen are employed to combine and distill the information they receive from the boss into a more digestible form that can be presented in a practical manner to the worker. Those middlemen are chosen by the citizens through a long and arduous process to ensure that they are trustworthy enough to accurately convey the desired message to the worker on the ground. Yes, theoretically an unscrupulous middleman could spread false information, but through hundreds of years of using this system the citizens have shown to have a strong degree of confidence in the effectiveness of the selection process. Not only do they have confidence, but they also find utility. It would be downright silly to go to all of the trouble of selecting the most trustworthy middleman and hire him, at a decent rate of pay I might add, only to never use his services. The citizens recognize the value they get by hiring these people to pass their orders to the workers. You personally may have no use for said middlemen as you management style sees you sit back and forever wait for Biden to knock on your door, but citizens (plural) is inherently about more than you.
    - Alupis 4y ago
      > Which is why government is set up in reverse: The citizens tell Biden what they want. The citizens are the boss, after all Again, that's some great theory, and it's how it's supposed to work, but it doesn't. If it did, the government wouldn't be busy misdirecting reasons why the prices are ludicrous - ie, they have to sell a fake narrative to the general population, and most of the population won't question authority. This is, in principal, why things like the electoral college exist - the framers knew the general population was busy living their own lives and either wouldn't pay enough attention or would deliberately be misled for political gain. So while yes the government eventually answers to the people, and in theory election outcomes will be based on what people want - the problem is when the people are deliberately misled and then vote based off half-truths and lies, which is what's going on here. High natural and petroleum gas prices are the Administration's own doing - the result of explicit domestic and foreign policy decisions the executive and team have made... but they've done a great job convincing casual voters they had nothing to do with it. That's where the way government is supposed to work starts to fall apart.
Spooky23 4y ago
That would be true if all things remain equal and the world didn’t consist of independent agents. The world is not that way. You shut off the gas, and the counterparty says “Ok, enjoy our new 150% tariff on software, vehicles and soy”.