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Re >> From someone who has used React professionally but uses vanilla HTML/CSS/JS for his personal website" What a refreshing perspective. My personal site is

Re >> From someone who has used React professionally but uses vanilla HTML/CSS/JS for his personal website" What a refreshing perspective. My personal site is also vanilla HTML/CSS/JS on a self hosted server. I constantly catch flak from all of my software engineering friends for it too, and I'm a little burned out on it. Edit: I'm a bit burned out on the flak and defending my position; not burned out on the approach :-)

jraph 4y ago
Please don't burn out for this. Vanilla HTML/CSS/JS is just a very right way of building a website. I don't know how we ended up having to even debate about this. Don't worry, just enjoy the simplicity, the zen and the lightness of this. (from a professional web developer, if it even matters - but the web, especially JS, was not targeted at professional web developers, which is the reason why JS is so "forgiving" - or was intended as such, but that failed miserably if you ask me)
- rodolphoarruda 4y ago
  Yes. Some things should be designed as simple as possible so they can last. https://jeffhuang.com/designed_to_last https://jeffhuang.com/designed_to_last
- daveslash 4y ago
  I've updated my comment to reflect that I'm burned out on catching the flak, but not the work itself. Personally, I love basking in the zen of the simplicity! I used to be a professional web developer in a former life, but these days I'm more medical-device and embedded focused. I moved out of the web space around the time that AngularJS was becoming the hot-new-thing, for better or worse.
DanAtC 4y ago
A good engineer knows which tools are right for the job.
kaeruct 4y ago
Those are some strange friends. Who cares what you use on your own website?
karaterobot 4y ago
I got burned out by all the frameworks. It's one of the main reasons I left web development. I love the web, and I still do personal web projects, even though I don't do them for work anymore. I just exclusively use vanilla JS, and make sure the scope doesn't get big enough that I need to construct a giant mech suit of frameworks and libraries and climb into it every time I want to make an app!
lolinder 4y ago
For a website the vanilla tools are exactly right—it's what they were designed for and they still do a really good job at it. The frameworks are only really worth their weight if you have a web app. I'd only consider a web framework if there's going to be >2x as much JS as markup.
francisofascii 4y ago
Yep, and honestly this is why people don't see as many vanilla sites. Fear of flak, or being labeled a cowboy from the pro-framework, declarative is better, crowd.
anotheracctfo 4y ago
I'm amazed at how many developers need ridiculous complexity to feel like they've accomplished something. I feel that too many people are focused on building resume keywords than solving problems. If you can solve it in 20 lines of CSS / JS then do it.
- oxff 4y ago
  You don't get hired for, say, a role that requires Svelte / React expertise by pointing out "I did it in vanilla JS!" - so you are correct, industry sets the rules and your CV if you want a job from them, needs to reflect this. There are also software engineering (not programming) reasons, mostly because they set standards for stuff like state management, for why they're useful - helps with future maintenance, documentation etc. when you don't have to interpret a custom self-made framework and teach it to hires.
  - dieselgate 4y ago
    Yep my thoughts as well. It’s great to use vanilla js for a personal website (I do) but if one is seeking employment knowing a popular framework (both backend and front end) is also critical. It also seems worthwhile from an Org standpoint because then they can target “react” or “vue” developers in job postings who can presumably hit the ground running productivity wise. (This is basically just echoing everything parent comment was saying)
  - Existenceblinks 4y ago
    Poll - Job market sucks - Industry sucks - JS framework sucks - Developer sucks
codyb 4y ago
Wow, what an interesting response. If someone told me they were trying different approaches to similar problems on their own time I'd say "Sounds like you'll probably learn something someone using the same approaches or not solving the problems on their own time wouldn't". Those engineers sound like the kind I don't like to work with. Giving you gaff for wanting to tinker on your own time is downright haughty.
jcpst 4y ago
I remember reading a similar HN thread in the past where someone didn’t understand how you build a html form without React, and that it seemed wild that someone would consider it. Framework, no framework, whatever works. I’m a fan of your approach. But it’s interesting to see how abstractions like react have created a class of web developers that may not know their HTML / DOM fundamentals.
- vinibrito 4y ago
  I once interviewed a guy for a clearly vanilla JS position and he only could work with React. He literally could not declare a variable in vanilla and display it in a hello world html element. I completely understand his approach, was someone breaking into web dev and people demand frameworks and not vanilla, but definitely felt weird to me.
- 6510 4y ago
  Then they make modules using modules and others use their modules to make modules too! Each module has little snippets copied from stack overflow because you inevitably have to have code that does things eventually.
datavirtue 4y ago
I stopped talking to other developers. Does wonders for your mental health.

jraph 4y ago

Please don't burn out for this. Vanilla HTML/CSS/JS is just a very right way of building a website. I don't know how we ended up having to even debate about this. Don't worry, just enjoy the simplicity, the zen and the lightness of this. (from a professional web developer, if it even matters - but the web, especially JS, was not targeted at professional web developers, which is the reason why JS is so "forgiving" - or was intended as such, but that failed miserably if you ask me)

rodolphoarruda 4y ago
Yes. Some things should be designed as simple as possible so they can last. https://jeffhuang.com/designed_to_last https://jeffhuang.com/designed_to_last
daveslash 4y ago
I've updated my comment to reflect that I'm burned out on catching the flak, but not the work itself. Personally, I love basking in the zen of the simplicity! I used to be a professional web developer in a former life, but these days I'm more medical-device and embedded focused. I moved out of the web space around the time that AngularJS was becoming the hot-new-thing, for better or worse.

DanAtC 4y ago

A good engineer knows which tools are right for the job.

kaeruct 4y ago

Those are some strange friends. Who cares what you use on your own website?

karaterobot 4y ago

I got burned out by all the frameworks. It's one of the main reasons I left web development. I love the web, and I still do personal web projects, even though I don't do them for work anymore. I just exclusively use vanilla JS, and make sure the scope doesn't get big enough that I need to construct a giant mech suit of frameworks and libraries and climb into it every time I want to make an app!

lolinder 4y ago

For a website the vanilla tools are exactly right—it's what they were designed for and they still do a really good job at it. The frameworks are only really worth their weight if you have a web app. I'd only consider a web framework if there's going to be >2x as much JS as markup.

francisofascii 4y ago

Yep, and honestly this is why people don't see as many vanilla sites. Fear of flak, or being labeled a cowboy from the pro-framework, declarative is better, crowd.

anotheracctfo 4y ago

I'm amazed at how many developers need ridiculous complexity to feel like they've accomplished something. I feel that too many people are focused on building resume keywords than solving problems. If you can solve it in 20 lines of CSS / JS then do it.

oxff 4y ago
You don't get hired for, say, a role that requires Svelte / React expertise by pointing out "I did it in vanilla JS!" - so you are correct, industry sets the rules and your CV if you want a job from them, needs to reflect this. There are also software engineering (not programming) reasons, mostly because they set standards for stuff like state management, for why they're useful - helps with future maintenance, documentation etc. when you don't have to interpret a custom self-made framework and teach it to hires.
- dieselgate 4y ago
  Yep my thoughts as well. It’s great to use vanilla js for a personal website (I do) but if one is seeking employment knowing a popular framework (both backend and front end) is also critical. It also seems worthwhile from an Org standpoint because then they can target “react” or “vue” developers in job postings who can presumably hit the ground running productivity wise. (This is basically just echoing everything parent comment was saying)
- Existenceblinks 4y ago
  Poll - Job market sucks - Industry sucks - JS framework sucks - Developer sucks

codyb 4y ago

Wow, what an interesting response. If someone told me they were trying different approaches to similar problems on their own time I'd say "Sounds like you'll probably learn something someone using the same approaches or not solving the problems on their own time wouldn't". Those engineers sound like the kind I don't like to work with. Giving you gaff for wanting to tinker on your own time is downright haughty.

jcpst 4y ago

I remember reading a similar HN thread in the past where someone didn’t understand how you build a html form without React, and that it seemed wild that someone would consider it. Framework, no framework, whatever works. I’m a fan of your approach. But it’s interesting to see how abstractions like react have created a class of web developers that may not know their HTML / DOM fundamentals.

vinibrito 4y ago
I once interviewed a guy for a clearly vanilla JS position and he only could work with React. He literally could not declare a variable in vanilla and display it in a hello world html element. I completely understand his approach, was someone breaking into web dev and people demand frameworks and not vanilla, but definitely felt weird to me.
6510 4y ago
Then they make modules using modules and others use their modules to make modules too! Each module has little snippets copied from stack overflow because you inevitably have to have code that does things eventually.

datavirtue 4y ago

I stopped talking to other developers. Does wonders for your mental health.