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> But most sites aren't GMail. Frameworks and typescript should still be the exception, and the rule should still be independent, modular libraries like JQuery.

> But most sites aren't GMail. Frameworks and typescript should still be the exception, and the rule should still be independent, modular libraries like JQuery. People always say this but it's so hollow. Most sites aren't Gmail, but we're not building most sites. We're building applications that work in similar fashion to Gmail, thus need similar stuff like all these frameworks provide. "Oh but everyone's using React to build their blogs instead of writing new posts for them and that's overkill" Let me stop you before we get to this point. People use their personal blogs as a way to test new concepts they want to learn, so of course it's gonna be over engineered to hell.

neon_electro 4y ago
So what about when product management starts demanding even more interactivity on a marketing site built without React? I pushed back hard on introducing React when the site already had jQuery. Another developer said they could do what was needed with React. The marketing site started shipping both jQuery and React. I hate the JavaScript/React ecosystem so damn much for its complexity.
- joshmanders 4y ago
  You hate a valuable ecosystem because your company product managers listened to someone else? I hope you find a new job. That's like saying you hate bananas because someone asked for a pie and you said you'd make an apple pie and they said they'd make a banana pie and they decided to choose the banana pie instead of your apple pie.
  - klibertp 4y ago
    You're being uncharitable for no good reason. If you're not sure if your interpretation of what GP said is true, ask for clarification and stop at that. Your first paragraph is ok, the second was uncalled for.
    - joshmanders 4y ago
      Uncalled for? I was explaining in a metaphor how I interpreted OP's reason for not liking React/JavaScript. I don't like PHP/Laravel ecosystem because I recommended we use vanilla PHP and my co-worker recommended we use Laravel and my manager decided to use Laravel. I don't like Python/Django ecosystem because I recommended we use vanilla Python and my co-worker recommended we use Django and my manager decided to use Django. Swap it with literally any framework in any language vs using vanilla-<lang here>. It all sounds just as ridiculous.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - klibertp 4y ago
        > I was explaining in a metaphor how I interpreted OP's reason for not liking React/JavaScript. Yes, but you failed to note it's just your interpretation, not what the GP said himself. And you continued by assuming your interpretation is correct, suggesting that the GP should get fired because of it. In reality, your interpretation is most likely not what the GP meant, and you clinging to your uncharitable interpretation in the context of GP comment was what I called "uncalled for". Please review the HN guidelines, this situation is addressed there explicitly (argue against the strongest interpretation of what others say, not the weakest; argue against what was said, not a person who said it). It's worth revisiting the guidelines from time to time, even if you're a long-time user. In this case, the more sensible interpretation would be something like this: the ecosystem where you have to include two completely different frameworks to get things done is overly complex, and the complexity is what the GP hates. It's perfectly valid position, too.
        joshmanders 4y ago
        > And you continued by assuming your interpretation is correct, suggesting that the GP should get fired because of it. Uh, where did I say GP should be fired for it? I said "I hope you find a new job" because he sounds unhappy at his current place.
  - neon_electro 4y ago
    I hate the complexity of the ecosystem. The benefits that make it valuable are obvious to us all. You do understand the downsides of shipping both jQuery and React on the same site, right?
  - gfdgdsgfd 4y ago
    Recreating everything in React when you just need a few JS lines of code for marketing is absolutely "bananas"
    - joshmanders 4y ago
      There's not enough information about the task for you to claim that "you just need a few JS lines of code" I know marketing sites that were just static and I know marketing sites that had highly interactive examples and needed to have React on the page.

neon_electro 4y ago

So what about when product management starts demanding even more interactivity on a marketing site built without React? I pushed back hard on introducing React when the site already had jQuery. Another developer said they could do what was needed with React. The marketing site started shipping both jQuery and React. I hate the JavaScript/React ecosystem so damn much for its complexity.

joshmanders 4y ago
You hate a valuable ecosystem because your company product managers listened to someone else? I hope you find a new job. That's like saying you hate bananas because someone asked for a pie and you said you'd make an apple pie and they said they'd make a banana pie and they decided to choose the banana pie instead of your apple pie.
- klibertp 4y ago
  You're being uncharitable for no good reason. If you're not sure if your interpretation of what GP said is true, ask for clarification and stop at that. Your first paragraph is ok, the second was uncalled for.
  - joshmanders 4y ago
    Uncalled for? I was explaining in a metaphor how I interpreted OP's reason for not liking React/JavaScript. I don't like PHP/Laravel ecosystem because I recommended we use vanilla PHP and my co-worker recommended we use Laravel and my manager decided to use Laravel. I don't like Python/Django ecosystem because I recommended we use vanilla Python and my co-worker recommended we use Django and my manager decided to use Django. Swap it with literally any framework in any language vs using vanilla-<lang here>. It all sounds just as ridiculous.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - klibertp 4y ago
      > I was explaining in a metaphor how I interpreted OP's reason for not liking React/JavaScript. Yes, but you failed to note it's just your interpretation, not what the GP said himself. And you continued by assuming your interpretation is correct, suggesting that the GP should get fired because of it. In reality, your interpretation is most likely not what the GP meant, and you clinging to your uncharitable interpretation in the context of GP comment was what I called "uncalled for". Please review the HN guidelines, this situation is addressed there explicitly (argue against the strongest interpretation of what others say, not the weakest; argue against what was said, not a person who said it). It's worth revisiting the guidelines from time to time, even if you're a long-time user. In this case, the more sensible interpretation would be something like this: the ecosystem where you have to include two completely different frameworks to get things done is overly complex, and the complexity is what the GP hates. It's perfectly valid position, too.
      - joshmanders 4y ago
        > And you continued by assuming your interpretation is correct, suggesting that the GP should get fired because of it. Uh, where did I say GP should be fired for it? I said "I hope you find a new job" because he sounds unhappy at his current place.
- neon_electro 4y ago
  I hate the complexity of the ecosystem. The benefits that make it valuable are obvious to us all. You do understand the downsides of shipping both jQuery and React on the same site, right?
- gfdgdsgfd 4y ago
  Recreating everything in React when you just need a few JS lines of code for marketing is absolutely "bananas"
  - joshmanders 4y ago
    There's not enough information about the task for you to claim that "you just need a few JS lines of code" I know marketing sites that were just static and I know marketing sites that had highly interactive examples and needed to have React on the page.