8 ms·

Out of curiosity, what do you feel you gained by not signing the NDA/non-disparagement that was worth so much to you?

by drdec 4y ago

whatshisface 4y ago
We gained the story, they did it for the benefit of the community.
jonas21 4y ago
The ability to write that comment?
- jonny_eh 4y ago
  And more importantly, not fearing being sued for accidentally saying the wrong thing to the wrong person.
  - paganel 4y ago
    And having a cleaner conscience down the road.
- BoorishBears 4y ago
  Maybe I'm just the worst kind of person because I'd 100% sign that and still talk. I get that with tech salaries 40k is practically a relocation fee, but I see those agreements as being about as binding as an EULA. I'd revel in them coming after me and can't for the life of me imagine damages past the 40k they offered unless you straight up lie.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - ipaddr 4y ago
    Leaving that kind of money on the table to share a story is not a practical action that makes sense to me without a six figure book deal in place.
  - wpietri 4y ago
    This sounds like it's coming from somebody who has never been sued, and never seen up close how painful it is. My mom was sued after she declared bankruptcy after a business failure. Her lawyer was strongly optimistic and the judge not only found in her favor, but also gave opposing counsel a dressing down that still warms my heart. Even so, it was 18 months of being put through the ringer. If she lost it would have been devastating, so she was always living under a cloud. And that period was both painful and expensive. So the concern isn't some sort of cash damage at the end of a trial, but everything leading up to it. Would they have come after me for anything I've said so far? Probably not. But probably isn't definitely. Even without signing it, I still have to measure every word against the odds I'll make somebody at Twitter mad enough to try to make an example of me. Signing would have made that much more fraught.
    - BoorishBears 4y ago
      Well I think it's quite simple... You're willing to sacrifice 40k to make comments on HN freely. I'm not only willing, but would truly relish, even years fighting over some kitchen sieve of a anti-defamation contract in court. (all while the employer is forced to air out exactly what they tried to pay me off for mind you) I'm not saying the latter approach is everyone's cup of tea, but I can definitely tell you which one I think is more likely to make an impact that hurts them...
      - wpietri 4y ago
        I believe you have that belief about yourself. But I still think it's not a belief informed by experience. Don't let me stop you from trying, though.
misterprime 4y ago
Being able to share the content above when it is relevant has value, doesn't it? If the opinion is that this sort of corporate behavior is not healthy, and the person hopes to reduce or even eliminate that sort of behavior, then they need to be able to share that information freely with others. $40k is a lot of money to some people, and not significant to others. To that person, being able to share the single post above might have more more value than an extra $40k in their savings account.
JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> what do you feel you gained by not signing the NDA/non-disparagement that was worth so much to you? I wouldn’t sign that. Less, if I’m honest, out of any sense of duty, and more to maintain leverage. If that story is worth $40k to the firm it could be worth more to me, down the road, should my past employer and I find ourselves disagreeing.
- travisjungroth 4y ago
  Sounds like blackmail. You’re not whistleblowing or suing for damages, so how else are you getting leverage from a story in disagreement?
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - melony 4y ago
    Blackmail's legality depends on whether monetary compensation is being demanded.
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    > how else are you getting leverage from a story in disagreement? It’s leverage held in reserve, not planned for immediate exploit. If we part ways and all is hunky dory, it sits stale. But if e.g. the firm gets bought by an asshole and he frivolously pursues ex employees for dumb reasons, e.g. deciding a non-compete covers everything from finance to gardening, I have something to fight back with. (One can similarly ask why the company needs non-disparagement protection.) Employers and former employees get in stupid tiffs all the time.
  - elliekelly 4y ago
    It’s not blackmail to want the opportunity to be able to tell the truth in the future. Jennette McCurdy recently wrote a memoir and mentions that Nickelodeon offered her $300k to sign an NDA about her time as a child actor there. She declined their offer. She didn’t blackmail Nickelodeon but it was absolutely the right decision for her since she’s more than made up the $300k on the sales of her book. And for the public, who got to read her excellent book.
wpietri 4y ago
It's not what I gained. It's what I would have lost.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- drdec 4y ago
  What did you feel you would have lost? I can imagine answers, but I've never been in that situation. There are may be things I won't think of. This is why I'm asking - my first instinct is take the money so I'd like to fully understand the thinking of the opposite side. In any case thanks for replying.
  - PuppyTailWags 4y ago
    After a certain amount of money to cover life expenses + recreation, additional money has diminishing returns. Once one reaches that point, leading a fulfilling life becomes the next highest priority. I would speculate the kind of person who joins an anti-abuse team would not find accepting hush-money about the lack of anti-abuse systems to be something they would find aligning with their vision of a fulfilling life.
    - tayo42 4y ago
      But nothing really came out of it? It's like twitters reputation got ruined or there was some repurcusion for the company freely talking about it
      - PuppyTailWags 4y ago
        This implies that the poster is the kind of person who doesn't find fulfillment in making choices that align with their ethics system unless the world also aligns with their ethics system. Like I said before, I don't think someone who would join an anti-abuse team follows this behavior pattern. Additionally, the belief in one's own moral choices and behavior is often one of the important steps in finding fulfillment in yourself. If your fulfillment is reliant on external validation, you will always be found wanting.

Out of curiosity, what do you feel you gained by not signing the NDA/non-disparagement that was worth so much to you?

by drdec 4y ago

Out of curiosity, what do you feel you gained by not signing the NDA/non-disparagement that was worth so much to you?

whatshisface 4y ago

We gained the story, they did it for the benefit of the community.

jonas21 4y ago

The ability to write that comment?

jonny_eh 4y ago
And more importantly, not fearing being sued for accidentally saying the wrong thing to the wrong person.
- paganel 4y ago
  And having a cleaner conscience down the road.
BoorishBears 4y ago
Maybe I'm just the worst kind of person because I'd 100% sign that and still talk. I get that with tech salaries 40k is practically a relocation fee, but I see those agreements as being about as binding as an EULA. I'd revel in them coming after me and can't for the life of me imagine damages past the 40k they offered unless you straight up lie.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- ipaddr 4y ago
  Leaving that kind of money on the table to share a story is not a practical action that makes sense to me without a six figure book deal in place.
- wpietri 4y ago
  This sounds like it's coming from somebody who has never been sued, and never seen up close how painful it is. My mom was sued after she declared bankruptcy after a business failure. Her lawyer was strongly optimistic and the judge not only found in her favor, but also gave opposing counsel a dressing down that still warms my heart. Even so, it was 18 months of being put through the ringer. If she lost it would have been devastating, so she was always living under a cloud. And that period was both painful and expensive. So the concern isn't some sort of cash damage at the end of a trial, but everything leading up to it. Would they have come after me for anything I've said so far? Probably not. But probably isn't definitely. Even without signing it, I still have to measure every word against the odds I'll make somebody at Twitter mad enough to try to make an example of me. Signing would have made that much more fraught.
  - BoorishBears 4y ago
    Well I think it's quite simple... You're willing to sacrifice 40k to make comments on HN freely. I'm not only willing, but would truly relish, even years fighting over some kitchen sieve of a anti-defamation contract in court. (all while the employer is forced to air out exactly what they tried to pay me off for mind you) I'm not saying the latter approach is everyone's cup of tea, but I can definitely tell you which one I think is more likely to make an impact that hurts them...
    - wpietri 4y ago
      I believe you have that belief about yourself. But I still think it's not a belief informed by experience. Don't let me stop you from trying, though.

misterprime 4y ago

Being able to share the content above when it is relevant has value, doesn't it? If the opinion is that this sort of corporate behavior is not healthy, and the person hopes to reduce or even eliminate that sort of behavior, then they need to be able to share that information freely with others. $40k is a lot of money to some people, and not significant to others. To that person, being able to share the single post above might have more more value than an extra $40k in their savings account.

JumpCrisscross 4y ago

> what do you feel you gained by not signing the NDA/non-disparagement that was worth so much to you? I wouldn’t sign that. Less, if I’m honest, out of any sense of duty, and more to maintain leverage. If that story is worth $40k to the firm it could be worth more to me, down the road, should my past employer and I find ourselves disagreeing.

travisjungroth 4y ago
Sounds like blackmail. You’re not whistleblowing or suing for damages, so how else are you getting leverage from a story in disagreement?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- melony 4y ago
  Blackmail's legality depends on whether monetary compensation is being demanded.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > how else are you getting leverage from a story in disagreement? It’s leverage held in reserve, not planned for immediate exploit. If we part ways and all is hunky dory, it sits stale. But if e.g. the firm gets bought by an asshole and he frivolously pursues ex employees for dumb reasons, e.g. deciding a non-compete covers everything from finance to gardening, I have something to fight back with. (One can similarly ask why the company needs non-disparagement protection.) Employers and former employees get in stupid tiffs all the time.
- elliekelly 4y ago
  It’s not blackmail to want the opportunity to be able to tell the truth in the future. Jennette McCurdy recently wrote a memoir and mentions that Nickelodeon offered her $300k to sign an NDA about her time as a child actor there. She declined their offer. She didn’t blackmail Nickelodeon but it was absolutely the right decision for her since she’s more than made up the $300k on the sales of her book. And for the public, who got to read her excellent book.

wpietri 4y ago

It's not what I gained. It's what I would have lost.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
drdec 4y ago
What did you feel you would have lost? I can imagine answers, but I've never been in that situation. There are may be things I won't think of. This is why I'm asking - my first instinct is take the money so I'd like to fully understand the thinking of the opposite side. In any case thanks for replying.
- PuppyTailWags 4y ago
  After a certain amount of money to cover life expenses + recreation, additional money has diminishing returns. Once one reaches that point, leading a fulfilling life becomes the next highest priority. I would speculate the kind of person who joins an anti-abuse team would not find accepting hush-money about the lack of anti-abuse systems to be something they would find aligning with their vision of a fulfilling life.
  - tayo42 4y ago
    But nothing really came out of it? It's like twitters reputation got ruined or there was some repurcusion for the company freely talking about it
    - PuppyTailWags 4y ago
      This implies that the poster is the kind of person who doesn't find fulfillment in making choices that align with their ethics system unless the world also aligns with their ethics system. Like I said before, I don't think someone who would join an anti-abuse team follows this behavior pattern. Additionally, the belief in one's own moral choices and behavior is often one of the important steps in finding fulfillment in yourself. If your fulfillment is reliant on external validation, you will always be found wanting.