7 ms·

I love cats but some of them absolutely do decimate local bird populations in the local neighborhood when they are left out unsupervised. My grandparents’ cat

I love cats but some of them absolutely do decimate local bird populations in the local neighborhood when they are left out unsupervised. My grandparents’ cat was like this. Very friendly to all people but when left outside would usually have a bird killed within a half hour.

hollywood_court 4y ago
- edgyquant 4y ago
  It’s ridiculous the lengths people go to inject their politics into their every post. Also sometimes cats just get out and run away, not everyone is letting them outside. In fact I’d wager that’s almost never the case.
  - hollywood_court 4y ago
    You’d wager that people rarely allow their cats outside intentionally? I imagine you’d lose that bet. Indoor/outdoor cats have been common everywhere I have lived. My next door neighbor’s cat, Mr. Freckles, almost completely wiped out our chipmunk colony and I still find dead birds he has killed every few weeks. I live in a small neighborhood of 43 homes and there are 6 cats that I know of that spend the majority of their time outside. I wish I lived where you live where it was less common.
- not2b 4y ago
  Yes, our cats have always been indoors; our next door neighbor's cats have been outdoors. One of them was killed by a coyote and left on our front lawn for my daughter to find.
- cityofdelusion 4y ago
  I’ve had a cat hit by a car and a cat lost forever. They were both indoor cats that were completely unprepared for what was outside. They escaped.
- BoxOfRain 4y ago
  Is this an American thing or something? Almost all the cats I've ever known were outdoor cats in the UK.
  - nobody9999 4y ago
    >Is this an American thing or something? Almost all the cats I've ever known were outdoor cats in the UK. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'd never allow my cats outside. Not for ecological reasons, but because I live in a flat on the fourth (that'd be the third floor in the UK) floor of an apartment building in NYC. If my cats got out of my apartment, they'd have to go down three flights of stairs and then wait for someone to open two separate doors in order to get out into the street. Once on the street, there are many hazards for cats, not least of which are automobiles. Having been to London, I imagine that there's a similar dynamic there as well. As such, I'd say that it's more about urban/suburban/rural settings than different countries.
- isthrowawaybul 4y ago
  >It is incredibly irresponsible to let cats outdoors. Istanbul has left the chat.
- lIl-IIIl 4y ago
  I have never heard of this. Why wouldn't you be surprised if your police officer spouse hits you or commits adultery?
  - hollywood_court 4y ago
    Police officer's commit domestic violence and adultery at a rate far higher than other non-LEO civilians. Some of us who have experienced it first hand may talk about it in jest to help alleviate the anxiety and other problems it has caused. My aim wasn't to offend anyone. Well unless you're a cop that commits domestic violence. They should probably be offended. It was a tactless analogy, but a strong analogy nonetheless.
    - lIl-IIIl 4y ago
      There were a few things that bothered me in that statement. "what did you expect to happen" blames the victim. "Police officer is as likely to engage in domestic violence as a cat is to kill a bird outside" is not a strong analogy. I think almost all young cats would kill birds outside. It's a far cry form "a far higher rate". As a rhetorical device, it falls flat because it argues for something obvious by comparing it to something obscure. It would work better the other way - if you were on a thread talking about domestic violence and comparing it to cats killing birds. Men commit violence at a far higher rate than women. But it's still lower than the "what did you expect" threshold.
    - spywaregorilla 4y ago
      A quick search can't find anything to validate the claim of police officers committing adultery more than other roles. Ironically tech and entrepreneurs rank highest among men in most polls, along with trade workers
- pvaldes 4y ago
  A cat must live the life of a cat, not the life of a doll. And yes, life sometimes is risky, and there is death in life, and there is dirt and half mice. We better learn to deal with it instead to keep running towards an hyperpuritan, hypersensitive society, unable to stand the minimum amount of frustration or to make anybody happy. To help birds, we plant trees and dense shrubs and wild hedges full of biodiversity and fruits and insects. We build nestboxes. We build ponds and birdbaths. We stop pruning like obsessed. We put seeds in winter. We know that birds and hedgehogs trive in areas full of cats. If they find any minimum refuge, this is unavoidable. If there are none of that things around, is not cat's fault. Build it. Children need to be exposed to free animals to turn into healthy people.
  - hollywood_court 4y ago
    The dead cats don't bother me as much as the dead birds. Introducing just one cat can completely change an entire ecosystem. Outdoor cats are a threat to global biodiversity. I know it makes you feel better to allow your cats outdoors but please recognize that it affects the ecosystem on a larger scale.
    - Gordonjcp 4y ago
      - hollywood_court 4y ago
        Are there any other fallacies you'd like to share with us this morning?
        Gordonjcp 4y ago
        Are you saying that you don't eat, or use oil in any way, or any sort of technology?
        jelliclesfarm 4y ago
        Harvard biologist E. O. Wilson estimates that 30,000 species per year (or three species per hour) are being driven to extinction. Compare this to the natural background rate of one extinction per million species per year, and you can see why scientists refer to it as a crisis unparalleled in human history.[..] https://www.biologicaldiversity.org/programs/population_and_sustainability/extinction/ https://www.biologicaldiversity.org/programs/population_and_...
- philote 4y ago
  I recently got a new kitten and we decided it'll be an indoor cat (though I'm harness training her so she can go out on walks). I've had several cats over the years die because they were allowed outside (one got hit by a car and one I think got locked in my neighbor's crawlspace/basement though we never found her). I personally haven't had many of my outdoor cats bring me birds, but where I live now we have bird feeders and don't want the birds preyed on. Edit: I forgot about the outdoor cat I had that I left at home when I went off to college. It got run over by my neighbor because it was sleeping under his wheel and he didn't notice.
- xkcd-sucks 4y ago
  I mean yeah, it's irresponsible to let people go outside, drive cars, play sports, consume media by personal choice, engage in romantic relationships, climb stairs and ladders, drink alcohol etc. Yet we still generally feel the quality of life improvements outweigh the quantity of life decreases. Consider also that humans confined to an indoor environment have much more environmental enrichment available in books, television, internet, games etc. The only environmental enrichment available to cats indoors are really terrible simulacra of nature (strings, balls, furniture) and many of these are only available when people are available to play.
  - djur 4y ago
    We're talking about a species that spends 2/3rds of its time napping. I've watched outdoor cats and their behavior (when not hunting, which not all cats do) is very similar to indoor cats. They nap, they wander around, they find another napping spot, and so on. They probably spend less time interacting with humans or other animals than indoor cats do.
- kerblang 4y ago
  This was at worst a mildly controversial comment until you got to the point declaring that all police officers are spouse-beating adulterers.
poulsbohemian 4y ago
>I love cats but some of them absolutely do decimate local bird populations in the local neighborhood when they are left out unsupervised. Not disagreeing per se, but every time this comes up on HN or in other public discourse, I ask for sources. Specifically, there is a statement that I see used regularly (including from the Audubon Society) that makes claims on the order of "billions" of birds killed every year by domestic cats. The question isn't whether cats will hunt a bird or rodent, but to my thinking whether their impact is any greater than say the risk of birds running into windows, etc. Feels a bit like when we blame the cow for burping (IE: doing what it does naturally) as the cause of global warming while we continue to drive around in our carbon-belching cars.
- hollywood_court 4y ago
  https://blogs.umass.edu/natsci397a-eross/the-environmental-and-health-impacts-of-allowing-cats-outdoors/ https://blogs.umass.edu/natsci397a-eross/the-environmental-a... We've had 3 birds hit our windows in the 12 years I've owned this home. To combat that, I made sure all the windows had blinds. It hasn't happened since. My one neighbor's cat kills more than 3 birds per month in the warm seasons. I haven't been able to combat that unfortunately. But I did build a dry stack retaining wall that has allowed the chipmunk population to have a bit of refuge. They are slowly growing in numbers. We had scores of them until the neighbors moved in next door. Within months they dwindled to less than a dozen. My wife and I used to love to sit at our breakfast table and watch them scurry around the yard and patio. Our neighbor's cat ruined that for us. I shouldn't have to spend $5k+ to prevent cats from killing chipmunks, but I'm always willing to do whatever I can to improve something rather than just complaining about it.
- imustbeevil 4y ago
  The first result on Google for "how many birds are killed by domesticated cats" is a scientific article from the Smithsonian Conservation Biology Institute and the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2380 https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2380
  - pvaldes 4y ago
xkcd-sucks 4y ago
Probably depends on the individual's tendencies. My cat's kill stats for year to date, not too many birds: Total 106 -------------------- Bird 3 Red Squirrel 1 Chipmunk 9 Rabbit 11 Vole 59 Deer Mouse 23 My garden and house really appreciate the vole/mouse/chipmunk control
- t-3 4y ago
  My cat only very rarely manages to get chipmunks and mice, but he doesn't usually kill them, generally alternating between cuddles and grooming and beating them savagely to make them jump and run. He's scared of birds after being mobbed by robins and crows.
  - brigandish 4y ago
    Is he interrupted in his cuddles and beatings? Cats are much like the kind of psychopaths you'll find in the intelligence services, as portrayed in movies. They'll torture their captive, play with them to train themselves (and possibly for fun, who knows?), and it seems your cat likes to play good cop too. At the end, if the captive's heart hasn't already given out, they'll kill it.
- 411111111111111 4y ago
  How did you produce these numbers? You sound way too confident in it's validity unless you've put a camera on the cat and check the full recording every day...
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - _eht 4y ago
    My educated guess would be that the gato presents them with these offerings.
    - user5678 4y ago
njacobs5074 4y ago
This behavior always reminds me of book "The World Without Us"[0] in which the author points out that, of all our domesticated animals, cats would definitely survive due to their excellent hunting skills in a world without humans. — [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World_Without_Us https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World_Without_Us
- formerkrogemp 4y ago
  >cats would definitely survive due to their excellent hunting skills in a world without humans. I don't know about yours, but my cats would not adjust well.
UncleOxidant 4y ago
> absolutely do decimate local bird populations Which is why it's best to keep them indoors or perhaps have a catio so they can experience the outdoors without impacting the local wildlife. It's also better for the cats as indoor cats tend to live longer.
- nathan_f77 4y ago
  We adopted two kittens late last year, and thought it would be nice to let them outside to run around and explore nature. We used to have an indoor cat that lived in apartments his whole life, and I always felt a bit guilty since he wasn't very happy and would always try to get outside. Our kittens learned to hunt very quickly and would bring animals into the house. Lots of lizards, mice, and birds. We got tired of burying dead animals and vacuuming up feathers. Then one of our cats got into a fight and got bitten. The vets think that the bite must have punctured a vein or artery in their shoulder, which caused a huge hematoma that swelled up their chest. They had severe anemia and almost died from internal bleeding, so they had to give them a blood transfusion. They didn't have any cat blood available, so they used dog blood instead. (Apparently that's quite common!) He's almost fully recovered now, but still has a limp that is slowly getting better. The vet bills ended up being over $6,000. Fortunately we had pet insurance, so we only had to pay $1,300. So we don't let them outside anymore. We were surprised to see that they don't seem to mind too much. They're not begging to go outside and they still seem perfectly happy. We've put a little bit of grass on an internal balcony, and we might try to build a catio enclosure so they can still have a little area to go outside. Maybe some netting like this: https://catnets.co.nz https://catnets.co.nz EDIT: Cat tax: https://imgur.com/a/umQpcvK https://imgur.com/a/umQpcvK
  - djur 4y ago
    I think people tend to overestimate the desire of most cats to spend time outdoors, because as humans we ascribe human motivations to cat behaviors. So we see the cat repeatedly try to go through the door, and we think of this as persistent behavior that reflects a high degree of motivation to go "outside". But "outside" is not a concept that a cat really understands. They understand doors well enough, and they might be frustrated and upset by not being allowed to go through them. But, as you mentioned, there's actually a lot more for them to be frustrated, upset, scared, and injured by outside than there is inside.
cat_plus_plus 4y ago
So why shouldn't felus catus be part of general ecosystem? Species have emerged for any number of reasons, including symbiotic relationship with other species. And sometimes new species hunt birds.
- lukas099 4y ago
  Generally we try to avoid bringing invasive species into an environment.

hollywood_court 4y ago

edgyquant 4y ago
It’s ridiculous the lengths people go to inject their politics into their every post. Also sometimes cats just get out and run away, not everyone is letting them outside. In fact I’d wager that’s almost never the case.
- hollywood_court 4y ago
  You’d wager that people rarely allow their cats outside intentionally? I imagine you’d lose that bet. Indoor/outdoor cats have been common everywhere I have lived. My next door neighbor’s cat, Mr. Freckles, almost completely wiped out our chipmunk colony and I still find dead birds he has killed every few weeks. I live in a small neighborhood of 43 homes and there are 6 cats that I know of that spend the majority of their time outside. I wish I lived where you live where it was less common.
not2b 4y ago
Yes, our cats have always been indoors; our next door neighbor's cats have been outdoors. One of them was killed by a coyote and left on our front lawn for my daughter to find.
cityofdelusion 4y ago
I’ve had a cat hit by a car and a cat lost forever. They were both indoor cats that were completely unprepared for what was outside. They escaped.
BoxOfRain 4y ago
Is this an American thing or something? Almost all the cats I've ever known were outdoor cats in the UK.
- nobody9999 4y ago
  >Is this an American thing or something? Almost all the cats I've ever known were outdoor cats in the UK. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'd never allow my cats outside. Not for ecological reasons, but because I live in a flat on the fourth (that'd be the third floor in the UK) floor of an apartment building in NYC. If my cats got out of my apartment, they'd have to go down three flights of stairs and then wait for someone to open two separate doors in order to get out into the street. Once on the street, there are many hazards for cats, not least of which are automobiles. Having been to London, I imagine that there's a similar dynamic there as well. As such, I'd say that it's more about urban/suburban/rural settings than different countries.
isthrowawaybul 4y ago
>It is incredibly irresponsible to let cats outdoors. Istanbul has left the chat.
lIl-IIIl 4y ago
I have never heard of this. Why wouldn't you be surprised if your police officer spouse hits you or commits adultery?
- hollywood_court 4y ago
  Police officer's commit domestic violence and adultery at a rate far higher than other non-LEO civilians. Some of us who have experienced it first hand may talk about it in jest to help alleviate the anxiety and other problems it has caused. My aim wasn't to offend anyone. Well unless you're a cop that commits domestic violence. They should probably be offended. It was a tactless analogy, but a strong analogy nonetheless.
  - lIl-IIIl 4y ago
    There were a few things that bothered me in that statement. "what did you expect to happen" blames the victim. "Police officer is as likely to engage in domestic violence as a cat is to kill a bird outside" is not a strong analogy. I think almost all young cats would kill birds outside. It's a far cry form "a far higher rate". As a rhetorical device, it falls flat because it argues for something obvious by comparing it to something obscure. It would work better the other way - if you were on a thread talking about domestic violence and comparing it to cats killing birds. Men commit violence at a far higher rate than women. But it's still lower than the "what did you expect" threshold.
  - spywaregorilla 4y ago
    A quick search can't find anything to validate the claim of police officers committing adultery more than other roles. Ironically tech and entrepreneurs rank highest among men in most polls, along with trade workers
pvaldes 4y ago
A cat must live the life of a cat, not the life of a doll. And yes, life sometimes is risky, and there is death in life, and there is dirt and half mice. We better learn to deal with it instead to keep running towards an hyperpuritan, hypersensitive society, unable to stand the minimum amount of frustration or to make anybody happy. To help birds, we plant trees and dense shrubs and wild hedges full of biodiversity and fruits and insects. We build nestboxes. We build ponds and birdbaths. We stop pruning like obsessed. We put seeds in winter. We know that birds and hedgehogs trive in areas full of cats. If they find any minimum refuge, this is unavoidable. If there are none of that things around, is not cat's fault. Build it. Children need to be exposed to free animals to turn into healthy people.
- hollywood_court 4y ago
  The dead cats don't bother me as much as the dead birds. Introducing just one cat can completely change an entire ecosystem. Outdoor cats are a threat to global biodiversity. I know it makes you feel better to allow your cats outdoors but please recognize that it affects the ecosystem on a larger scale.
  - Gordonjcp 4y ago
    - hollywood_court 4y ago
      Are there any other fallacies you'd like to share with us this morning?
      - Gordonjcp 4y ago
        Are you saying that you don't eat, or use oil in any way, or any sort of technology?
      - jelliclesfarm 4y ago
        Harvard biologist E. O. Wilson estimates that 30,000 species per year (or three species per hour) are being driven to extinction. Compare this to the natural background rate of one extinction per million species per year, and you can see why scientists refer to it as a crisis unparalleled in human history.[..] https://www.biologicaldiversity.org/programs/population_and_sustainability/extinction/ https://www.biologicaldiversity.org/programs/population_and_...
philote 4y ago
I recently got a new kitten and we decided it'll be an indoor cat (though I'm harness training her so she can go out on walks). I've had several cats over the years die because they were allowed outside (one got hit by a car and one I think got locked in my neighbor's crawlspace/basement though we never found her). I personally haven't had many of my outdoor cats bring me birds, but where I live now we have bird feeders and don't want the birds preyed on. Edit: I forgot about the outdoor cat I had that I left at home when I went off to college. It got run over by my neighbor because it was sleeping under his wheel and he didn't notice.
xkcd-sucks 4y ago
I mean yeah, it's irresponsible to let people go outside, drive cars, play sports, consume media by personal choice, engage in romantic relationships, climb stairs and ladders, drink alcohol etc. Yet we still generally feel the quality of life improvements outweigh the quantity of life decreases. Consider also that humans confined to an indoor environment have much more environmental enrichment available in books, television, internet, games etc. The only environmental enrichment available to cats indoors are really terrible simulacra of nature (strings, balls, furniture) and many of these are only available when people are available to play.
- djur 4y ago
  We're talking about a species that spends 2/3rds of its time napping. I've watched outdoor cats and their behavior (when not hunting, which not all cats do) is very similar to indoor cats. They nap, they wander around, they find another napping spot, and so on. They probably spend less time interacting with humans or other animals than indoor cats do.
kerblang 4y ago
This was at worst a mildly controversial comment until you got to the point declaring that all police officers are spouse-beating adulterers.

poulsbohemian 4y ago

>I love cats but some of them absolutely do decimate local bird populations in the local neighborhood when they are left out unsupervised. Not disagreeing per se, but every time this comes up on HN or in other public discourse, I ask for sources. Specifically, there is a statement that I see used regularly (including from the Audubon Society) that makes claims on the order of "billions" of birds killed every year by domestic cats. The question isn't whether cats will hunt a bird or rodent, but to my thinking whether their impact is any greater than say the risk of birds running into windows, etc. Feels a bit like when we blame the cow for burping (IE: doing what it does naturally) as the cause of global warming while we continue to drive around in our carbon-belching cars.

hollywood_court 4y ago
https://blogs.umass.edu/natsci397a-eross/the-environmental-and-health-impacts-of-allowing-cats-outdoors/ https://blogs.umass.edu/natsci397a-eross/the-environmental-a... We've had 3 birds hit our windows in the 12 years I've owned this home. To combat that, I made sure all the windows had blinds. It hasn't happened since. My one neighbor's cat kills more than 3 birds per month in the warm seasons. I haven't been able to combat that unfortunately. But I did build a dry stack retaining wall that has allowed the chipmunk population to have a bit of refuge. They are slowly growing in numbers. We had scores of them until the neighbors moved in next door. Within months they dwindled to less than a dozen. My wife and I used to love to sit at our breakfast table and watch them scurry around the yard and patio. Our neighbor's cat ruined that for us. I shouldn't have to spend $5k+ to prevent cats from killing chipmunks, but I'm always willing to do whatever I can to improve something rather than just complaining about it.
imustbeevil 4y ago
The first result on Google for "how many birds are killed by domesticated cats" is a scientific article from the Smithsonian Conservation Biology Institute and the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2380 https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2380
- pvaldes 4y ago

xkcd-sucks 4y ago

Probably depends on the individual's tendencies. My cat's kill stats for year to date, not too many birds: Total 106 -------------------- Bird 3 Red Squirrel 1 Chipmunk 9 Rabbit 11 Vole 59 Deer Mouse 23 My garden and house really appreciate the vole/mouse/chipmunk control

t-3 4y ago
My cat only very rarely manages to get chipmunks and mice, but he doesn't usually kill them, generally alternating between cuddles and grooming and beating them savagely to make them jump and run. He's scared of birds after being mobbed by robins and crows.
- brigandish 4y ago
  Is he interrupted in his cuddles and beatings? Cats are much like the kind of psychopaths you'll find in the intelligence services, as portrayed in movies. They'll torture their captive, play with them to train themselves (and possibly for fun, who knows?), and it seems your cat likes to play good cop too. At the end, if the captive's heart hasn't already given out, they'll kill it.
411111111111111 4y ago
How did you produce these numbers? You sound way too confident in it's validity unless you've put a camera on the cat and check the full recording every day...
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- _eht 4y ago
  My educated guess would be that the gato presents them with these offerings.
  - user5678 4y ago

njacobs5074 4y ago

This behavior always reminds me of book "The World Without Us"[0] in which the author points out that, of all our domesticated animals, cats would definitely survive due to their excellent hunting skills in a world without humans. — [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World_Without_Us https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World_Without_Us

formerkrogemp 4y ago
>cats would definitely survive due to their excellent hunting skills in a world without humans. I don't know about yours, but my cats would not adjust well.

UncleOxidant 4y ago

> absolutely do decimate local bird populations Which is why it's best to keep them indoors or perhaps have a catio so they can experience the outdoors without impacting the local wildlife. It's also better for the cats as indoor cats tend to live longer.

nathan_f77 4y ago
We adopted two kittens late last year, and thought it would be nice to let them outside to run around and explore nature. We used to have an indoor cat that lived in apartments his whole life, and I always felt a bit guilty since he wasn't very happy and would always try to get outside. Our kittens learned to hunt very quickly and would bring animals into the house. Lots of lizards, mice, and birds. We got tired of burying dead animals and vacuuming up feathers. Then one of our cats got into a fight and got bitten. The vets think that the bite must have punctured a vein or artery in their shoulder, which caused a huge hematoma that swelled up their chest. They had severe anemia and almost died from internal bleeding, so they had to give them a blood transfusion. They didn't have any cat blood available, so they used dog blood instead. (Apparently that's quite common!) He's almost fully recovered now, but still has a limp that is slowly getting better. The vet bills ended up being over $6,000. Fortunately we had pet insurance, so we only had to pay $1,300. So we don't let them outside anymore. We were surprised to see that they don't seem to mind too much. They're not begging to go outside and they still seem perfectly happy. We've put a little bit of grass on an internal balcony, and we might try to build a catio enclosure so they can still have a little area to go outside. Maybe some netting like this: https://catnets.co.nz https://catnets.co.nz EDIT: Cat tax: https://imgur.com/a/umQpcvK https://imgur.com/a/umQpcvK
- djur 4y ago
  I think people tend to overestimate the desire of most cats to spend time outdoors, because as humans we ascribe human motivations to cat behaviors. So we see the cat repeatedly try to go through the door, and we think of this as persistent behavior that reflects a high degree of motivation to go "outside". But "outside" is not a concept that a cat really understands. They understand doors well enough, and they might be frustrated and upset by not being allowed to go through them. But, as you mentioned, there's actually a lot more for them to be frustrated, upset, scared, and injured by outside than there is inside.

cat_plus_plus 4y ago

So why shouldn't felus catus be part of general ecosystem? Species have emerged for any number of reasons, including symbiotic relationship with other species. And sometimes new species hunt birds.

lukas099 4y ago
Generally we try to avoid bringing invasive species into an environment.