6 ms·

A lot of people are viewing this from the employer ... I view this as simple ethics. You keep your word, period. For those that object to this on ethical grou

by nupark2 15y ago

A lot of people are viewing this from the employer ... I view this as simple ethics. You keep your word, period. For those that object to this on ethical grounds, consider this scenario: the company has their preferred employee who passes on the job and then they offer it to you. If that first guy comes back and changes his mind, will the company say "oh sorry, we've offered it to someone else". They might. Or they might not (and I've had it happen where they haven't). If a company rescinds their offer due to no fault of your own (e.g, misrepresentation), then it's just as unethical as you rescinding your acceptance of the offer. If you're not sure, then simply do not accept the offer. They'll either wait (or they won't), but it's the only ethically sound decision available, and you will avoid the possibility of making a bad name for yourself. I'd certainly remember someone that accepted an offer and then backed out without cause. Nobody responsible does this.

pavel_lishin 15y ago
> I view this as simple ethics. You keep your word, period. It gets tricky. If you're a publicly traded company, do you prioritize keeping your implicit word to your stockholders, or to the guy who might or might not come work for you, maybe?
arctangent 15y ago
> I view this as simple ethics. You keep your word, period. I keep my word when I'm dealing with people. With people my word is bond. With a company, all that matters from an ethical and legal point of view is what's written down on paper and signed by both parties. If you sign a contract promising to begin work on a certain date and there's no penalty for changing your mind, then it's OK to change your mind. If they wanted a firmer commitment than that then they could write in a penalty clause to cover that circumstance. Of course, you'd be entitled to ask for more from them in return for this commitment (e.g. increased signing bonus). You may let down a few people at the first company if you change your mind and take another offer, but if you're a manager at a company then you should be well versed in dealing with the mild disappointment arising from an individual choosing to act in their own interest rather than the interest of the company.
- codeonfire 15y ago
  >With a company, all that matters from an ethical and legal point of view is what's written down on paper and signed by both parties. Exactly, companies of all kinds can and do legally lie to your face, and write something entirely different down. It's not ethics, it's business. Every buy a car? Nothing the salesperson says has any legal bearing at all.
  - fmx 15y ago
    A company is made up of people. If you treat a company unethically the consequences are suffered by people, not by some imaginary entity that only exists on paper. The only difference is that you may not always know who they are. Yes, companies and salespeople can lie legally - but not ethically, and that's what we're talking about here.
- nupark2 15y ago
  With a company, all that matters from an ethical and legal point of view is what's written down on paper and signed by both parties. Companies are comprised of people. If you break your word and cost the company money, you're costing those people (and the investors) money. As a business owner, I find it very frustrating how some people's morals seem to not apply to their dealings with corporations. I wonder if it's a lack of familiarity with how businesses are run, and the ease of treating the company as a faceless entity. You may let down a few people at the first company if you change your mind and take another offer, but if you're a manager at a company then you should be well versed in dealing with the mild disappointment arising from an individual choosing to act in their own interest rather than the interest of the company. Acting in your own interest is fine. Acting in your own interest contrary to your word is not. If working for the company is not in your interest, don't accept the offer. It's as simple as that -- nobody's feelings will be hurt. If you need more time, say so. If the company won't offer you more time, don't accept the offer. However, if you accept the offer and then renege, the people involved are likely going to have a validly poor opinion of your professionalism, ethics, and maturity.
  - cletus 15y ago
tripzilch 15y ago
> I'd certainly remember someone that accepted an offer and then backed out without cause. Nobody responsible does this. Except when the cause is "they pressured me and didn't want to give me time to compare offers, so I trust my instincts, delayed, and what do you know? Indeed their offer was much worse, no wonder they resorted to those tactics, good thing I didn't actually sign anything yet and I could still go for the other job" in which case it sounds like a very responsible person. Of course some companies prefer employees with a little bit less backbone, which is exactly what they would have gotten away with if it weren't for that meddling Spolksy! ;-)
cletus 15y ago
> I view this as simple ethics. You keep your word, period. Certainly in the US in most states, employment is "at will", meaning the company can fire you for pretty much any reason at any time (ignoring protected classes and so on). Likewise, the employee can leave at any time. If you accept the offer and then renege you've actually fulfilled your contractual obligation. If the company wants more than that, they need to pay for it. They can lock you up for a period with a golden handshake. They can keep you with golden handcuffs. You have a misguided view of ethics here. The employment contract exists to give both parties an out. This reminds me tangentially of the ethics debate around foreclosure. Some smart people realized would do things like: - deliberately not pay the mortgage to trigger foreclosure as they were underwater and presumably they lived in a "no recourse" state (meaning the bank could take the house and that was the end of it); - they might do this simply to force a better rate or get the bank to settle on the owed debt at a level where they were no longer underwater. Some argued it was your ethical responsibility to pay if you can. I disagree. The contract that exists between the lender and the borrower exists to lay out the rights and responsibilities of both parties, including a mechanism for terminating the contract. From a purely ethical (and completely irrelevant) point of view I see this as holding banks accountable for shady lending practices. After all, it was banks and the lack of due diligence in lending practices that led to this situation. You are under no obligation to spend several years working for your second or third choice employer just because you said you would. Think about it this way. Imagine you said to your spouse "I said I'd marry you but that's because someone else said 'no' so I'm going to stick with it because I said I would". What would happen? Would your spouse thank you? Almost certainly not. Nobody wants to be a second choice. An employer wants people who are excited to be working for them and enthused about what they're working on. It makes a happier employee and a better place to work. If you feel like you're trapped you'll simply mope around thinking about the other chance you gave up, helping nobody, including the employer. Oh and as for the idea that you've crossed the employer, in my experience most people don't take this personally and, for those that do, you probably don't want to work for them anyway. Fact is, they'll probably forget who you are in a few days or less. It might hurt your chances at working for that same company in the future but it probably won't. And if it does, considering you turned them down once, do you really want to work for them?
- 15y ago
harryh 15y ago
> I view this as simple ethics. You keep your word, period. How far does your word go though? You can (in general) quit a job anytime you want right? So, you could go to work for them for a single day and then quit and that would be fine? But you can't decide a day before you start that you want to go work somewhere else? I don't think these things are as cut and dried as you might think.
abruzzi 15y ago
Backing out could certainly spike your chances of getting a job with the jilted company in the future, but unless your in a tiny field where everyone knows everyone, no one else will know. Just don't list that company on you're resume. On the ethics debate, all I'll say is it reminds me of 'The Shining' where Jack, as he's working himself up to kill his wife, argues that her suggestion to leave the hotel is an ethical no-no because his employers have placed their trust in him. "Do you have any idea what a moral or ethical principal is?" -- Jack Torrance http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfnmwACXvBg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfnmwACXvBg -G
mruniverse 15y ago
Using pressure tactics on a new grad doesn't sound too ethical to me. The only person gaining if the new grad accepts is the recruiter. The company will gain a disgruntled employee and the employee will have lost a better offer.
einhverfr 15y ago
"I view this as simple ethics. You keep your word, period." In general I agree. But what is the limitation? "I will work for you" is filled if you quit half way through your first day on the job and that's far worse for the employer than if you bailed out in advance. "If a company rescinds their offer due to no fault of your own (e.g, misrepresentation), then it's just as unethical as you rescinding your acceptance of the offer." I am going to say here that someone giving an exploding offer based on when you say your other interviews are is at least guilty here. I would argue that if someone does this, they entirely deserve what they get.
rondon1 15y ago
It would be like the a professional basketball player refusing to intentionally foul Shaq because they feel that hitting someone is simply immoral. I respect your desire to "Keep your word, period" and I also respect someone who refuses to hit someone in a sport. But you are simply putting yourself at a disadvantage to the team you are playing against.

by nupark2 15y ago

pavel_lishin 15y ago

> I view this as simple ethics. You keep your word, period. It gets tricky. If you're a publicly traded company, do you prioritize keeping your implicit word to your stockholders, or to the guy who might or might not come work for you, maybe?

arctangent 15y ago

> I view this as simple ethics. You keep your word, period. I keep my word when I'm dealing with people. With people my word is bond. With a company, all that matters from an ethical and legal point of view is what's written down on paper and signed by both parties. If you sign a contract promising to begin work on a certain date and there's no penalty for changing your mind, then it's OK to change your mind. If they wanted a firmer commitment than that then they could write in a penalty clause to cover that circumstance. Of course, you'd be entitled to ask for more from them in return for this commitment (e.g. increased signing bonus). You may let down a few people at the first company if you change your mind and take another offer, but if you're a manager at a company then you should be well versed in dealing with the mild disappointment arising from an individual choosing to act in their own interest rather than the interest of the company.

codeonfire 15y ago
>With a company, all that matters from an ethical and legal point of view is what's written down on paper and signed by both parties. Exactly, companies of all kinds can and do legally lie to your face, and write something entirely different down. It's not ethics, it's business. Every buy a car? Nothing the salesperson says has any legal bearing at all.
- fmx 15y ago
  A company is made up of people. If you treat a company unethically the consequences are suffered by people, not by some imaginary entity that only exists on paper. The only difference is that you may not always know who they are. Yes, companies and salespeople can lie legally - but not ethically, and that's what we're talking about here.
nupark2 15y ago
With a company, all that matters from an ethical and legal point of view is what's written down on paper and signed by both parties. Companies are comprised of people. If you break your word and cost the company money, you're costing those people (and the investors) money. As a business owner, I find it very frustrating how some people's morals seem to not apply to their dealings with corporations. I wonder if it's a lack of familiarity with how businesses are run, and the ease of treating the company as a faceless entity. You may let down a few people at the first company if you change your mind and take another offer, but if you're a manager at a company then you should be well versed in dealing with the mild disappointment arising from an individual choosing to act in their own interest rather than the interest of the company. Acting in your own interest is fine. Acting in your own interest contrary to your word is not. If working for the company is not in your interest, don't accept the offer. It's as simple as that -- nobody's feelings will be hurt. If you need more time, say so. If the company won't offer you more time, don't accept the offer. However, if you accept the offer and then renege, the people involved are likely going to have a validly poor opinion of your professionalism, ethics, and maturity.
- cletus 15y ago

tripzilch 15y ago

> I'd certainly remember someone that accepted an offer and then backed out without cause. Nobody responsible does this. Except when the cause is "they pressured me and didn't want to give me time to compare offers, so I trust my instincts, delayed, and what do you know? Indeed their offer was much worse, no wonder they resorted to those tactics, good thing I didn't actually sign anything yet and I could still go for the other job" in which case it sounds like a very responsible person. Of course some companies prefer employees with a little bit less backbone, which is exactly what they would have gotten away with if it weren't for that meddling Spolksy! ;-)

cletus 15y ago

> I view this as simple ethics. You keep your word, period. Certainly in the US in most states, employment is "at will", meaning the company can fire you for pretty much any reason at any time (ignoring protected classes and so on). Likewise, the employee can leave at any time. If you accept the offer and then renege you've actually fulfilled your contractual obligation. If the company wants more than that, they need to pay for it. They can lock you up for a period with a golden handshake. They can keep you with golden handcuffs. You have a misguided view of ethics here. The employment contract exists to give both parties an out. This reminds me tangentially of the ethics debate around foreclosure. Some smart people realized would do things like: - deliberately not pay the mortgage to trigger foreclosure as they were underwater and presumably they lived in a "no recourse" state (meaning the bank could take the house and that was the end of it); - they might do this simply to force a better rate or get the bank to settle on the owed debt at a level where they were no longer underwater. Some argued it was your ethical responsibility to pay if you can. I disagree. The contract that exists between the lender and the borrower exists to lay out the rights and responsibilities of both parties, including a mechanism for terminating the contract. From a purely ethical (and completely irrelevant) point of view I see this as holding banks accountable for shady lending practices. After all, it was banks and the lack of due diligence in lending practices that led to this situation. You are under no obligation to spend several years working for your second or third choice employer just because you said you would. Think about it this way. Imagine you said to your spouse "I said I'd marry you but that's because someone else said 'no' so I'm going to stick with it because I said I would". What would happen? Would your spouse thank you? Almost certainly not. Nobody wants to be a second choice. An employer wants people who are excited to be working for them and enthused about what they're working on. It makes a happier employee and a better place to work. If you feel like you're trapped you'll simply mope around thinking about the other chance you gave up, helping nobody, including the employer. Oh and as for the idea that you've crossed the employer, in my experience most people don't take this personally and, for those that do, you probably don't want to work for them anyway. Fact is, they'll probably forget who you are in a few days or less. It might hurt your chances at working for that same company in the future but it probably won't. And if it does, considering you turned them down once, do you really want to work for them?

15y ago

harryh 15y ago

> I view this as simple ethics. You keep your word, period. How far does your word go though? You can (in general) quit a job anytime you want right? So, you could go to work for them for a single day and then quit and that would be fine? But you can't decide a day before you start that you want to go work somewhere else? I don't think these things are as cut and dried as you might think.

abruzzi 15y ago

Backing out could certainly spike your chances of getting a job with the jilted company in the future, but unless your in a tiny field where everyone knows everyone, no one else will know. Just don't list that company on you're resume. On the ethics debate, all I'll say is it reminds me of 'The Shining' where Jack, as he's working himself up to kill his wife, argues that her suggestion to leave the hotel is an ethical no-no because his employers have placed their trust in him. "Do you have any idea what a moral or ethical principal is?" -- Jack Torrance http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfnmwACXvBg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfnmwACXvBg -G

mruniverse 15y ago

Using pressure tactics on a new grad doesn't sound too ethical to me. The only person gaining if the new grad accepts is the recruiter. The company will gain a disgruntled employee and the employee will have lost a better offer.

einhverfr 15y ago

"I view this as simple ethics. You keep your word, period." In general I agree. But what is the limitation? "I will work for you" is filled if you quit half way through your first day on the job and that's far worse for the employer than if you bailed out in advance. "If a company rescinds their offer due to no fault of your own (e.g, misrepresentation), then it's just as unethical as you rescinding your acceptance of the offer." I am going to say here that someone giving an exploding offer based on when you say your other interviews are is at least guilty here. I would argue that if someone does this, they entirely deserve what they get.

rondon1 15y ago

It would be like the a professional basketball player refusing to intentionally foul Shaq because they feel that hitting someone is simply immoral. I respect your desire to "Keep your word, period" and I also respect someone who refuses to hit someone in a sport. But you are simply putting yourself at a disadvantage to the team you are playing against.