7 ms·

The counterpoint to this is if you aren't specifically assigned tasks you're basically expected to go through the backlog to hunt for things to do. In most comp

The counterpoint to this is if you aren't specifically assigned tasks you're basically expected to go through the backlog to hunt for things to do. In most companies the backlog is never empty and so you don't really get any time for any of these ancillary tasks. This is part of the reason performance optimizations and other improvements never get done. PMs are encouraged to stuff backlogs full of nonsense related to new features because that's what the people up top want to see. When the reality is, allowing your engineers even 8 hours of unstructured time a week will often produce better work. The exception to this rule of course tends to be the top of the ladder (senior principal, whatever) who generally get to do whatever they want as long as it's company related. 99.99% of engineers will never reach this point, however, and so the vast majority of these high performers are subject to the tyranny of JIRA and it's subsequent negatives.

ryandrake 4y ago
> The counterpoint to this is if you aren't specifically assigned tasks you're basically expected to go through the backlog to hunt for things to do. In most companies the backlog is never empty and so you don't really get any time for any of these ancillary tasks. Yea, instead of thumb twiddling, just go fix some bugs! Every company I've ever worked at had 1. more bugs than could ever be fixed and 2. had an incoming bug rate faster than the team's fix rate, therefore the bug count perpetually grew. Some of these could be long standing bugs that annoy actual users that just perpetually get ignored by the company. Go fix one and make someone's day. There is no such thing as a Software Engineer with nothing to do. When I read HN comments from software engineers who say things like "yawn, my work fits into about 6 hours a week, and the remaining 34 hours I just take it easy, maybe work on a side project, maybe horse around on Facebook..." my mind boggles! Where do you work where there are no bugs in the backlog to fix?? If there are really no bugs to fix, maybe look into cleaning up the code base. Turn a few compiler warnings on or run the static analyzer and go looking for trouble. Re-factor that gnarly part of the code that's always tripped up new employees. Add unit tests. Add integration tests. Automate some part of the build. Maybe work on a nicer bug dashboard.
- stackbutterflow 4y ago
  Common answer is you don't get paid more.
  - Test0129 4y ago
    As much as most people don't like to admit it this is also the reason I tend to not vigorously hunt for work in the backlog after hitting my requisite sprint goal plus a few points. Realistically bug fixing like a mad man is what makes us look at each other as good engineers. Managers, however, will see this and raise your sprint points next time making your goals that harder to achieve. Goodhart's law raises it's ugly head every time JIRA is used. Unpointed work can be seen as a boon (in the right company) but in most companies today working on something unpointed is "cowboy" and you're more likely to get in trouble for it. Even if the marginal benefit is positive.
    - Frotag 4y ago
      Plus, I may have downtime to dumpster dive for old tickets but my manager / peers usually don't. So try to I avoid creating PR work for others unless the ticket is relevant to the feature-being-developed or a one-line fix.
- Kakashi4 4y ago
  All the things you've mentioned if there's no bugs to fix sound really boring to do. They're also high effort, low reward (most of the time). I'd rather do something else that I enjoy, than do any of that since I'd get paid the same amount if I did it or not. Not everyone works on something that they're hyper passionate about, or that is very useful to people, to the extent that they'd work on it if they don't have to
  - katrotz 4y ago
    Thats more a question of having a balanced team size, ownership and accountability.
  - marssaxman 4y ago
zffr 4y ago
> The counterpoint to this is if you aren't specifically assigned tasks you're basically expected to go through the backlog to hunt for things to do. In most companies the backlog is never empty and so you don't really get any time for any of these ancillary tasks. In my experience, most companies have some baseline level of work they expect you to do as an employee. Once you complete that, then you have some flexibility to choose the work that you do so long as it adds value to the company. It is also important that your work is perceived by your manager/peers to add value too.
closeparen 4y ago
>you're basically expected to go through the backlog to hunt for things to do No, you're expected to feel a sense of ownership over and identification with the system, and to have a fairly deep personal sense of itches that need scratching and ideas worth exploring. Some of those ideas may originate from other people, but if you need other people or an issue tracker to tell you what the backlog is, you're not really right for that kind of role.
- ms4720 4y ago
  Why should I feel a sense of ownership over something everyone, myself included, know I do not own? Really why? I have a sense of professional responsibility that says do my best at work because I take the money, but that is different. If I have unallocated and paid for time at work I look for things to fill it with that are valid work and improve my skills, or braindead things to fix like typos in the text or simple documentation updates. Both mean I am earning my pay and oddly enough I get a lot of props for the second and so does the engineering team overall for that work.
  - slt2021 4y ago
    there are several tiers of companies, tech product focused companies tend to pay more, but they also require you to have sense of ownership for the product. Companies decided to pay more to have self-driven engineers that figure out by themselves what to do, rather than hire nanny for each engineer that gives and monitors tasks. totally cool if you dont have that, you can work at some bank or hospital and work in your own style, but the compensation will be smaller
    - Test0129 4y ago
      You can not own anything and be a self starter. I build things because it corresponds to more money, not because I consider my project my "stake". I couldnt care less what happens to it. I will make it maintainable for my own sanity and improve it so long as they pay me. I don't "own" anything. When I'm laid off I don't get to keep anything. So why should I care any more than I have to?
Izkata 4y ago
> if you aren't specifically assigned tasks you're basically expected to go through the backlog to hunt for things to do. In most companies the backlog is never empty and so you don't really get any time for any of these ancillary tasks. This is addressed on a comment on one of the answers: They had three sprints worth of backlog until Bob joined and burned through it all.

ryandrake 4y ago

> The counterpoint to this is if you aren't specifically assigned tasks you're basically expected to go through the backlog to hunt for things to do. In most companies the backlog is never empty and so you don't really get any time for any of these ancillary tasks. Yea, instead of thumb twiddling, just go fix some bugs! Every company I've ever worked at had 1. more bugs than could ever be fixed and 2. had an incoming bug rate faster than the team's fix rate, therefore the bug count perpetually grew. Some of these could be long standing bugs that annoy actual users that just perpetually get ignored by the company. Go fix one and make someone's day. There is no such thing as a Software Engineer with nothing to do. When I read HN comments from software engineers who say things like "yawn, my work fits into about 6 hours a week, and the remaining 34 hours I just take it easy, maybe work on a side project, maybe horse around on Facebook..." my mind boggles! Where do you work where there are no bugs in the backlog to fix?? If there are really no bugs to fix, maybe look into cleaning up the code base. Turn a few compiler warnings on or run the static analyzer and go looking for trouble. Re-factor that gnarly part of the code that's always tripped up new employees. Add unit tests. Add integration tests. Automate some part of the build. Maybe work on a nicer bug dashboard.

stackbutterflow 4y ago
Common answer is you don't get paid more.
- Test0129 4y ago
  As much as most people don't like to admit it this is also the reason I tend to not vigorously hunt for work in the backlog after hitting my requisite sprint goal plus a few points. Realistically bug fixing like a mad man is what makes us look at each other as good engineers. Managers, however, will see this and raise your sprint points next time making your goals that harder to achieve. Goodhart's law raises it's ugly head every time JIRA is used. Unpointed work can be seen as a boon (in the right company) but in most companies today working on something unpointed is "cowboy" and you're more likely to get in trouble for it. Even if the marginal benefit is positive.
  - Frotag 4y ago
    Plus, I may have downtime to dumpster dive for old tickets but my manager / peers usually don't. So try to I avoid creating PR work for others unless the ticket is relevant to the feature-being-developed or a one-line fix.
Kakashi4 4y ago
All the things you've mentioned if there's no bugs to fix sound really boring to do. They're also high effort, low reward (most of the time). I'd rather do something else that I enjoy, than do any of that since I'd get paid the same amount if I did it or not. Not everyone works on something that they're hyper passionate about, or that is very useful to people, to the extent that they'd work on it if they don't have to
- katrotz 4y ago
  Thats more a question of having a balanced team size, ownership and accountability.
- marssaxman 4y ago

zffr 4y ago

closeparen 4y ago

>you're basically expected to go through the backlog to hunt for things to do No, you're expected to feel a sense of ownership over and identification with the system, and to have a fairly deep personal sense of itches that need scratching and ideas worth exploring. Some of those ideas may originate from other people, but if you need other people or an issue tracker to tell you what the backlog is, you're not really right for that kind of role.

ms4720 4y ago
Why should I feel a sense of ownership over something everyone, myself included, know I do not own? Really why? I have a sense of professional responsibility that says do my best at work because I take the money, but that is different. If I have unallocated and paid for time at work I look for things to fill it with that are valid work and improve my skills, or braindead things to fix like typos in the text or simple documentation updates. Both mean I am earning my pay and oddly enough I get a lot of props for the second and so does the engineering team overall for that work.
- slt2021 4y ago
  there are several tiers of companies, tech product focused companies tend to pay more, but they also require you to have sense of ownership for the product. Companies decided to pay more to have self-driven engineers that figure out by themselves what to do, rather than hire nanny for each engineer that gives and monitors tasks. totally cool if you dont have that, you can work at some bank or hospital and work in your own style, but the compensation will be smaller
  - Test0129 4y ago
    You can not own anything and be a self starter. I build things because it corresponds to more money, not because I consider my project my "stake". I couldnt care less what happens to it. I will make it maintainable for my own sanity and improve it so long as they pay me. I don't "own" anything. When I'm laid off I don't get to keep anything. So why should I care any more than I have to?

Izkata 4y ago

> if you aren't specifically assigned tasks you're basically expected to go through the backlog to hunt for things to do. In most companies the backlog is never empty and so you don't really get any time for any of these ancillary tasks. This is addressed on a comment on one of the answers: They had three sprints worth of backlog until Bob joined and burned through it all.