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Are there any documents supporting this? I ask because I am curious what official documents exist around this idea of mandated return to inefficiency -- there m

by dpflan 4y ago

Are there any documents supporting this? I ask because I am curious what official documents exist around this idea of mandated return to inefficiency -- there must've been a gain elsewhere (or is that too optimistic)? Plus there must be costs documented associated with the first and second program. Genuinely curious about this type of decision (call it "inefficiency thrash"?).

brightball 4y ago
Over my career I've seen it communicated as "leadership support" where people implementing different programs know that they are only as effective as the leadership support behind it. I do some Scaled Agile Framework consulting and the implementation a good example, because it can be fantastic but if leadership at the top of the company doesn't get on board the entire process will self destruct or be bastardized. The professors who built the system knew this about every customer they talked to and it was a big learning experience for me. New leaders will come in and often insist on tools that they already know, rather than take the time to learn about better options. If you've ever read Skunk Works (fantastic book), you see lots of this in the military procurement process in the US. It's bad enough that you worry how much it's hurting US national security innovations.
- Seattle3503 4y ago
  > New leaders will come in and often insist on tools that they already know, rather than take the time to learn about better options. I've seen this with developers. Newly joining developers, particularly junior and mid career developers, tend to insist on using the languages, libraries, and techniques they are familiar with. Senior Developers don't seem to do it as much. Either because they are familiar with many things, or because they have been on the other side of these well intentioned suggestions to know when it is actually productive.
  - stingraycharles 4y ago
    Sounds about right, I went through the whole process, went through a big functional programming romance in the mid of my career, and after 15 years am now like “I’ll use whatever”. I do care about using the right abstractions and high-level interactions, not as much about the language or frameworks. I’ll let others put in their political weight on that, so that I can do it in the areas I believe will really make an impact to the business goals.
bumby 4y ago
My (completely speculative) hunch is that they may have been chasing efficiencies beyond the scope of uniforms, or even beyond the scope of the army. For example, the solution may not have worked well with other procurement items and they wanted a single platform. Or the navy already had an SAP contract that could be leveraged without spending money on a separate stand-alone army solution. So it can look like a bad decision that generated local inefficiency while globally it was a better choice. That's not to say SAP actually delivered on those promises.
- ramesh31 4y ago
  And this is why enterprise software is always so horrid to use when compared to a simplistic web app. It’s about features above all else. If someone can do their job, that’s all that matters. And tightening up the UX around that workflow falls to the very bottom priority against developing new features.
- tmpz22 4y ago
  Or this small company built by a pair of professors didn't have the customer support arm or continuity guarantees to service an organization as large as the US Army. Its always good to call out corruption, but its also important to realize when a situation is actually crazy complex and while its an awesome story might not be worth formulating a summary judgement from.
  - bumby 4y ago
    That could very well be the case. I looked up the professor and the company he created for this solution and the link is dead. However, for an organization like the army that spends $$$ on logistics, I would bet they would continually fund something like this if it showed enough promise. One thing the DoD and Congress are good at is throwing money at R&D efforts.
    - jacobr1 4y ago
      Another thing is requiring continuity clauses in the contract. Such as, in the case of going out of business or otherwise deciding to discontinue the project, the IP and source code needs to be turned over.
jwess 4y ago
Here's a link to a report that has a lot more information about the system: https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA393599.pdf https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA393599.pdf
- brightball 4y ago
  How in the world did y’all find that? I saw it posted below. The system was/is called Balanced Flow.
  - latchkey 4y ago
    3rd link (for me): https://www.google.com/search?q=Clemson+Apparel+Research https://www.google.com/search?q=Clemson+Apparel+Research

by dpflan 4y ago

brightball 4y ago

Over my career I've seen it communicated as "leadership support" where people implementing different programs know that they are only as effective as the leadership support behind it. I do some Scaled Agile Framework consulting and the implementation a good example, because it can be fantastic but if leadership at the top of the company doesn't get on board the entire process will self destruct or be bastardized. The professors who built the system knew this about every customer they talked to and it was a big learning experience for me. New leaders will come in and often insist on tools that they already know, rather than take the time to learn about better options. If you've ever read Skunk Works (fantastic book), you see lots of this in the military procurement process in the US. It's bad enough that you worry how much it's hurting US national security innovations.

Seattle3503 4y ago
> New leaders will come in and often insist on tools that they already know, rather than take the time to learn about better options. I've seen this with developers. Newly joining developers, particularly junior and mid career developers, tend to insist on using the languages, libraries, and techniques they are familiar with. Senior Developers don't seem to do it as much. Either because they are familiar with many things, or because they have been on the other side of these well intentioned suggestions to know when it is actually productive.
- stingraycharles 4y ago
  Sounds about right, I went through the whole process, went through a big functional programming romance in the mid of my career, and after 15 years am now like “I’ll use whatever”. I do care about using the right abstractions and high-level interactions, not as much about the language or frameworks. I’ll let others put in their political weight on that, so that I can do it in the areas I believe will really make an impact to the business goals.

bumby 4y ago

My (completely speculative) hunch is that they may have been chasing efficiencies beyond the scope of uniforms, or even beyond the scope of the army. For example, the solution may not have worked well with other procurement items and they wanted a single platform. Or the navy already had an SAP contract that could be leveraged without spending money on a separate stand-alone army solution. So it can look like a bad decision that generated local inefficiency while globally it was a better choice. That's not to say SAP actually delivered on those promises.

ramesh31 4y ago
And this is why enterprise software is always so horrid to use when compared to a simplistic web app. It’s about features above all else. If someone can do their job, that’s all that matters. And tightening up the UX around that workflow falls to the very bottom priority against developing new features.
tmpz22 4y ago
Or this small company built by a pair of professors didn't have the customer support arm or continuity guarantees to service an organization as large as the US Army. Its always good to call out corruption, but its also important to realize when a situation is actually crazy complex and while its an awesome story might not be worth formulating a summary judgement from.
- bumby 4y ago
  That could very well be the case. I looked up the professor and the company he created for this solution and the link is dead. However, for an organization like the army that spends $$$ on logistics, I would bet they would continually fund something like this if it showed enough promise. One thing the DoD and Congress are good at is throwing money at R&D efforts.
  - jacobr1 4y ago
    Another thing is requiring continuity clauses in the contract. Such as, in the case of going out of business or otherwise deciding to discontinue the project, the IP and source code needs to be turned over.

jwess 4y ago

Here's a link to a report that has a lot more information about the system: https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA393599.pdf https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA393599.pdf

brightball 4y ago
How in the world did y’all find that? I saw it posted below. The system was/is called Balanced Flow.
- latchkey 4y ago
  3rd link (for me): https://www.google.com/search?q=Clemson+Apparel+Research https://www.google.com/search?q=Clemson+Apparel+Research