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I know several people that work (or have worked) at Amazon, and am currently going through their interview process (among other companies, but I would likely ac

I know several people that work (or have worked) at Amazon, and am currently going through their interview process (among other companies, but I would likely accept a good offer from Amazon). My conclusions: 1. Amazon's internal beurocracy enables good teams to be very good, and bad teams to be very bad 2. However, there is significant internal mobility, so you can move if you get stuck on a bad team 3. WFH policy is effectively left up to each individual team, so that is something to probe about during the interview 4. Everybody at Amazon is in the on-call rotation, but on-call load varies significantly by team (I know someone working on an internal tool that has literally never gotten paged) 5. Churn is roughly 6%, as that is what the infamous URA target is set to; however, you'd be surprised how many incompetent people make it past even FAANG interviews, so I wouldn't particularly worry if you're good at your job and your boss isn't an asshole Overall, I would describe Amazon as a relatively good place to work on average, but the people that have it bad have it really really bad, and hopefully they can switch to a good team.

belval 4y ago
Bingo, I've had a hard time reconciling the HN's perception of AWS SDE work and my job. I have people telling me that it's horrible, attrition rate, constant grind and endless oncalls. Yet I've never experienced any of those things. Of all the places I've worked at in Canada, AWS was the nicest and I highly recommend it.
- dont__panic 4y ago
  There are certainly some toxic teams out there, just like there are in any large org. I think an even bigger factor is the fact that Amazon is an enormous vertically-integrated monopoly that: - abuses its market position to run competitors out of business - mistreats its most vulnerable, low-level employees For many of us, that's a moral dealbreaker. But there are certainly some great teams and interesting projects in the SDE space if that's what you want!
- tstrimple 4y ago
  I wonder how much of this is the perception of Amazon warehouse workers being transferred over to Amazon technology workers. I've heard a ton of bad things about the former, but the folks I personally know who work at Amazon / AWS as tech workers all seem to be happy with it. Of course, how Amazon treats its warehouse workers is an indictment on the overall company, so I think I'd have a difficult time choosing to work there.
  - azemetre 4y ago
    I don't think it started with warehouse workers, there was a famous NYT article talking about office workers at Amazon where entire teams would leave a meeting in tears: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/16/technology/inside-amazon-wrestling-big-ideas-in-a-bruising-workplace.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/16/technology/inside-amazon-...
  - marssaxman 4y ago
    Among folks I know in Seattle, Amazon had a bad reputation as a burnout factory before those stories about the warehouses ever really came out.
  - Lich 4y ago
    I know two acquaintances that are SDEs that worked at Amazon and hated it. One of them was "forced" to work until 3-4 AM. His manager said to him, "How can you even think of sleeping right now?". Fortunately he found a new position at Microsoft. The other SDE feels like a cog in a machine and hates it so much he's going back to his home country.
    - scarface74 4y ago
      You’re always a cog in the machine. If you think otherwise you’re being naive. No matter where you work, if you got hit by a bus tomorrow, your company would send “thoughts and prayers” to your family and have an open req for you before your body got cold. I definitely can’t imagine “being forced” to do anything at a job too often before I’m looking for another job.
- random314 4y ago
  But there was the suicide of an office worker in Seattle.
  - iLoveOncall 4y ago
    There are more than 3 suicides every day in Seattle, I don't see how 1 suicide of a person that happened to work for Amazon is really telling of anything.
    - random314 4y ago
      I am not aware of anyone working in any other FAANG tech space attempting suicide after sending an email to the CEO about transferring teams. https://thenextweb.com/news/amazon-employee-email-note https://thenextweb.com/news/amazon-employee-email-note
donavanm 4y ago
Disclosure, long time principal at AWS but all statements are my own opinion. 1. Yes, but I believe its more culture than bureaucracy. 2. open transfers 30 days post hire, IIRC. 3. More org than team, and exceptions abound. 4. Yes. 5. Not quite; unregretted is employees with low perf rating leaving there is also regretted attrition which is mid-high perf rating employees leaving. The total is inline with industry norms (10-13%/yr) in my experience.
opmelogy 4y ago
FYI: all of these are off the mark, some more than others. Here's some more info to help flesh it out (which is lacking too because there is so much nuance to this stuff). > 1. Amazon's internal beurocracy enables good teams to be very good, and bad teams to be very bad These get sniffed out eventually. It's usually a cluster of teams and it comes down to a specific leader creating a toxic environment. Some are very good at managing up and hiding the problems. But that only lasts so long (although sometimes years). > 2. However, there is significant internal mobility, so you can move if you get stuck on a bad team Not true. If you are SDE I (entry level) moving teams is incredibly hard. All of the job posting are for SDE II (except for rare circumstances) and above so you can't apply for other teams. Usually the only way to switch teams is if you know someone there and they can help you out. If you are not in an engineering role, switching teams is even harder. The business side tends to be more political and also have more candidates for positions. > 3. WFH policy is effectively left up to each individual team, so that is something to probe about during the interview Not true. If your skip-level or even higher says no remote then there will be no remote. While some groups may leave it to each "individual team" it can always be overruled. > 4. Everybody at Amazon is in the on-call rotation, but on-call load varies significantly by team (I know someone working on an internal tool that has literally never gotten paged) Not true. There are teams that don't have on-call rotations. Groups that are building software that hasn't launched yet are likely not carrying a pager. Higher level managers and engineers (Principals) are likely not on a paper rotation. And a bunch of business teams don't have on-call rotations. > 5. Churn is roughly 6%, as that is what the infamous URA target is set to; Oversimplified. That 6% changes every year. I've seen it much lower in some years. It all depends on what's going on in the company. That 6% is just a number they want forced out. It doesn't include people leaving on their own terms that the company would love to have back, so churn is higher. > however, you'd be surprised how many incompetent people make it past even FAANG interviews, so I wouldn't particularly worry if you're good at your job and your boss isn't an asshole That's a dangerous assumption to make. It's not as simple as if your boss isn't an asshole. A big factor is if your boss knows how to set you up for success and if you know the rules of how things work there. During review time, groups that are run well will have each team bring a list of their lowest performers to discuss. They vet how well these employees are functioning against the expectations for their level. If things naturally fall into the right ratio of people that need to be slotted below the bar, then they are done. But if there are not enough people they start digging more into where people land in relation to each other. If your boss hasn't set you up with work that allows you to demonstrate your real abilities then you are likely in trouble. It's not that your boss is an asshole, but that they are inept and screwing things up.
mtnGoat 4y ago
I’m not sure #4 is true. I don’t think anyone in the sales org is on call. No one on my team is that I am aware of.

belval 4y ago

Bingo, I've had a hard time reconciling the HN's perception of AWS SDE work and my job. I have people telling me that it's horrible, attrition rate, constant grind and endless oncalls. Yet I've never experienced any of those things. Of all the places I've worked at in Canada, AWS was the nicest and I highly recommend it.

dont__panic 4y ago
There are certainly some toxic teams out there, just like there are in any large org. I think an even bigger factor is the fact that Amazon is an enormous vertically-integrated monopoly that: - abuses its market position to run competitors out of business - mistreats its most vulnerable, low-level employees For many of us, that's a moral dealbreaker. But there are certainly some great teams and interesting projects in the SDE space if that's what you want!
tstrimple 4y ago
I wonder how much of this is the perception of Amazon warehouse workers being transferred over to Amazon technology workers. I've heard a ton of bad things about the former, but the folks I personally know who work at Amazon / AWS as tech workers all seem to be happy with it. Of course, how Amazon treats its warehouse workers is an indictment on the overall company, so I think I'd have a difficult time choosing to work there.
- azemetre 4y ago
  I don't think it started with warehouse workers, there was a famous NYT article talking about office workers at Amazon where entire teams would leave a meeting in tears: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/16/technology/inside-amazon-wrestling-big-ideas-in-a-bruising-workplace.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/16/technology/inside-amazon-...
- marssaxman 4y ago
  Among folks I know in Seattle, Amazon had a bad reputation as a burnout factory before those stories about the warehouses ever really came out.
- Lich 4y ago
  I know two acquaintances that are SDEs that worked at Amazon and hated it. One of them was "forced" to work until 3-4 AM. His manager said to him, "How can you even think of sleeping right now?". Fortunately he found a new position at Microsoft. The other SDE feels like a cog in a machine and hates it so much he's going back to his home country.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    You’re always a cog in the machine. If you think otherwise you’re being naive. No matter where you work, if you got hit by a bus tomorrow, your company would send “thoughts and prayers” to your family and have an open req for you before your body got cold. I definitely can’t imagine “being forced” to do anything at a job too often before I’m looking for another job.
random314 4y ago
But there was the suicide of an office worker in Seattle.
- iLoveOncall 4y ago
  There are more than 3 suicides every day in Seattle, I don't see how 1 suicide of a person that happened to work for Amazon is really telling of anything.
  - random314 4y ago
    I am not aware of anyone working in any other FAANG tech space attempting suicide after sending an email to the CEO about transferring teams. https://thenextweb.com/news/amazon-employee-email-note https://thenextweb.com/news/amazon-employee-email-note

donavanm 4y ago

Disclosure, long time principal at AWS but all statements are my own opinion. 1. Yes, but I believe its more culture than bureaucracy. 2. open transfers 30 days post hire, IIRC. 3. More org than team, and exceptions abound. 4. Yes. 5. Not quite; unregretted is employees with low perf rating leaving there is also regretted attrition which is mid-high perf rating employees leaving. The total is inline with industry norms (10-13%/yr) in my experience.

opmelogy 4y ago

FYI: all of these are off the mark, some more than others. Here's some more info to help flesh it out (which is lacking too because there is so much nuance to this stuff). > 1. Amazon's internal beurocracy enables good teams to be very good, and bad teams to be very bad These get sniffed out eventually. It's usually a cluster of teams and it comes down to a specific leader creating a toxic environment. Some are very good at managing up and hiding the problems. But that only lasts so long (although sometimes years). > 2. However, there is significant internal mobility, so you can move if you get stuck on a bad team Not true. If you are SDE I (entry level) moving teams is incredibly hard. All of the job posting are for SDE II (except for rare circumstances) and above so you can't apply for other teams. Usually the only way to switch teams is if you know someone there and they can help you out. If you are not in an engineering role, switching teams is even harder. The business side tends to be more political and also have more candidates for positions. > 3. WFH policy is effectively left up to each individual team, so that is something to probe about during the interview Not true. If your skip-level or even higher says no remote then there will be no remote. While some groups may leave it to each "individual team" it can always be overruled. > 4. Everybody at Amazon is in the on-call rotation, but on-call load varies significantly by team (I know someone working on an internal tool that has literally never gotten paged) Not true. There are teams that don't have on-call rotations. Groups that are building software that hasn't launched yet are likely not carrying a pager. Higher level managers and engineers (Principals) are likely not on a paper rotation. And a bunch of business teams don't have on-call rotations. > 5. Churn is roughly 6%, as that is what the infamous URA target is set to; Oversimplified. That 6% changes every year. I've seen it much lower in some years. It all depends on what's going on in the company. That 6% is just a number they want forced out. It doesn't include people leaving on their own terms that the company would love to have back, so churn is higher. > however, you'd be surprised how many incompetent people make it past even FAANG interviews, so I wouldn't particularly worry if you're good at your job and your boss isn't an asshole That's a dangerous assumption to make. It's not as simple as if your boss isn't an asshole. A big factor is if your boss knows how to set you up for success and if you know the rules of how things work there. During review time, groups that are run well will have each team bring a list of their lowest performers to discuss. They vet how well these employees are functioning against the expectations for their level. If things naturally fall into the right ratio of people that need to be slotted below the bar, then they are done. But if there are not enough people they start digging more into where people land in relation to each other. If your boss hasn't set you up with work that allows you to demonstrate your real abilities then you are likely in trouble. It's not that your boss is an asshole, but that they are inept and screwing things up.

mtnGoat 4y ago

I’m not sure #4 is true. I don’t think anyone in the sales org is on call. No one on my team is that I am aware of.