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Good luck with all that. Whether you vote Democrat or Republican it doesn’t really make a difference. The specter of corporate interest is eternally allowed to

Good luck with all that. Whether you vote Democrat or Republican it doesn’t really make a difference. The specter of corporate interest is eternally allowed to possess legislative avatars and parade about guaranteeing that status quo. If there is a physical signal strong enough to orient the capable majority of 8 billion people with a common vector field in regard to the climate situation, I haven’t seen it yet.

maxbond 4y ago
Electoral politics is largely a failure. It's the last mile of any political movement, where activism has succeeded, the culture has changed, and the politicians are ready to sign off on it - nothing changes through electoral politics that hasn't a already changed from boots-on-the-ground activism. We are seeing people realize this and embrace other forms of political action. Think about the rise of "quiet quitting" - people are pushing back against this fatal culture of working endlessly to produce useless crap that's destroying our environment. We're on the cusp of something major. There's no guarantee it will get here in time to save us. But it's a real possibility.
- raydiatian 4y ago
  > Electoralism is largely a failure Is like saying civilization-scale delegation is a failure, like saying mankind is a failure > Quiet quitting Maybe, but also maybe they’re all just like me, maybe my nihilism and apathy is raging against the machine despite my desire
  - maxbond 4y ago
    Regarding large scale decision making, I believe in democracy; the way we currently implement it, with many layers of indirection and a senate (in the US) which is designed to defeat the will of the people, is not the only possibility. If you're able to help to any degree, for any reason, then you've done your part. It'd probably be healthier if it were hopeful and motivated by wanting to build a better world, but if it's nihilism and rage, then that's okay. If all you can do is work less or consume less, or just not to stand in the way, then that's okay; that's enough.
- kubanczyk 4y ago
  NB: You are using a non-standard definition of "electoralism". Democracy is not optimal for decision making (far from it), but at least it does allow the activists to have boots on the ground. Under other forms of government, activists tend to go more like IEDs on the ground. Still, considering the worst-case scenarios, if we're going to go authoritarian (a big IF!), I'd rather get there instead of being decimated by global warming rather than after.
  - maxbond 4y ago
    You're right, my bad. I meant electoral politics. I've edited the comment. Thank you. To be clear I do not advocate authoritarianism and would like to see direct democracy (or more direct, at the very least). I don't believe authoritarianism is compatible with surviving climate change, and even if I did I didn't think it would exacerbate climate change, I wouldn't advocate for it because I believe horizontal structures make better decisions & create more just societies then heirarchical ones.
bowsamic 4y ago
That's why we need to have an actual political revolution, even if it is bloody. I don't understand this modern liberal obsession with doing everything within the law. A lot of meaningful historical social changes were done by breaking the law. It's absurd to think we won't have to do so
- raydiatian 4y ago
  Good luck
  - bowsamic 4y ago
    Well people are waking up, and then we will hopefully have some figurehead that mobilises the wider public. I do not care if it's a majority (I am not a fan of democracy), but if it's enough to overpower the rest then that's hopefully enough. Clearly, capitalism is not an eternal fact of nature, it will eventually die
    - raydiatian 4y ago
      > People are waking up but also > I am not a fan of democracy > Capitalism is not an eternal fact of nature
      - bowsamic 4y ago
        I don't understand. Do you think that capitalism is an eternal fact of nature? A lot of liberals do, so that wouldn't be surprising
        raydiatian 4y ago
        > Do you think that capitalism is an eternal fact of nature? In our lifetime, when capitalism is the weaker fundamental force driving man’s priorities, I’ll come and give you all of my money.
        4y ago
hackerlight 4y ago
> Whether you vote Democrat or Republican it doesn’t really make a difference What? Democrats just passed the Inflation Reduction Act, while Republicans are the lead villains in the world when it comes to aggravating the problem. https://earthjustice.org/blog/2022-august/inflation-reduction-act-biggest-climate-investment-fight-doesnt-stop https://earthjustice.org/blog/2022-august/inflation-reductio...
- raydiatian 4y ago
  Nice. Only 20 years late. Progress!

maxbond 4y ago

Electoral politics is largely a failure. It's the last mile of any political movement, where activism has succeeded, the culture has changed, and the politicians are ready to sign off on it - nothing changes through electoral politics that hasn't a already changed from boots-on-the-ground activism. We are seeing people realize this and embrace other forms of political action. Think about the rise of "quiet quitting" - people are pushing back against this fatal culture of working endlessly to produce useless crap that's destroying our environment. We're on the cusp of something major. There's no guarantee it will get here in time to save us. But it's a real possibility.

raydiatian 4y ago
> Electoralism is largely a failure Is like saying civilization-scale delegation is a failure, like saying mankind is a failure > Quiet quitting Maybe, but also maybe they’re all just like me, maybe my nihilism and apathy is raging against the machine despite my desire
- maxbond 4y ago
  Regarding large scale decision making, I believe in democracy; the way we currently implement it, with many layers of indirection and a senate (in the US) which is designed to defeat the will of the people, is not the only possibility. If you're able to help to any degree, for any reason, then you've done your part. It'd probably be healthier if it were hopeful and motivated by wanting to build a better world, but if it's nihilism and rage, then that's okay. If all you can do is work less or consume less, or just not to stand in the way, then that's okay; that's enough.
kubanczyk 4y ago
NB: You are using a non-standard definition of "electoralism". Democracy is not optimal for decision making (far from it), but at least it does allow the activists to have boots on the ground. Under other forms of government, activists tend to go more like IEDs on the ground. Still, considering the worst-case scenarios, if we're going to go authoritarian (a big IF!), I'd rather get there instead of being decimated by global warming rather than after.
- maxbond 4y ago
  You're right, my bad. I meant electoral politics. I've edited the comment. Thank you. To be clear I do not advocate authoritarianism and would like to see direct democracy (or more direct, at the very least). I don't believe authoritarianism is compatible with surviving climate change, and even if I did I didn't think it would exacerbate climate change, I wouldn't advocate for it because I believe horizontal structures make better decisions & create more just societies then heirarchical ones.

bowsamic 4y ago

That's why we need to have an actual political revolution, even if it is bloody. I don't understand this modern liberal obsession with doing everything within the law. A lot of meaningful historical social changes were done by breaking the law. It's absurd to think we won't have to do so

raydiatian 4y ago
Good luck
- bowsamic 4y ago
  Well people are waking up, and then we will hopefully have some figurehead that mobilises the wider public. I do not care if it's a majority (I am not a fan of democracy), but if it's enough to overpower the rest then that's hopefully enough. Clearly, capitalism is not an eternal fact of nature, it will eventually die
  - raydiatian 4y ago
    > People are waking up but also > I am not a fan of democracy > Capitalism is not an eternal fact of nature
    - bowsamic 4y ago
      I don't understand. Do you think that capitalism is an eternal fact of nature? A lot of liberals do, so that wouldn't be surprising
      - raydiatian 4y ago
        > Do you think that capitalism is an eternal fact of nature? In our lifetime, when capitalism is the weaker fundamental force driving man’s priorities, I’ll come and give you all of my money.
        4y ago

hackerlight 4y ago

> Whether you vote Democrat or Republican it doesn’t really make a difference What? Democrats just passed the Inflation Reduction Act, while Republicans are the lead villains in the world when it comes to aggravating the problem. https://earthjustice.org/blog/2022-august/inflation-reduction-act-biggest-climate-investment-fight-doesnt-stop https://earthjustice.org/blog/2022-august/inflation-reductio...

raydiatian 4y ago
Nice. Only 20 years late. Progress!