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Yep. I remember a few years ago I was all gung ho about us fixing the problem based on the napkin math alone. Came out to mankind having a budget of something l

Yep. I remember a few years ago I was all gung ho about us fixing the problem based on the napkin math alone. Came out to mankind having a budget of something like 10 quintillion man hours until climate was permanently fucked with sealed fates. Seems like more than enough to orchestrate a solution. Now I realize it just doesn’t matter to the people really behind the wheel. Eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we’ll die. Fuck it

maxbond 4y ago
I agree there has been a tremendous failure of leadership and that the people benefiting from the status quo are incapable of changing course, but let's get them away from that wheel.
- raydiatian 4y ago
  Good luck with all that. Whether you vote Democrat or Republican it doesn’t really make a difference. The specter of corporate interest is eternally allowed to possess legislative avatars and parade about guaranteeing that status quo. If there is a physical signal strong enough to orient the capable majority of 8 billion people with a common vector field in regard to the climate situation, I haven’t seen it yet.
  - maxbond 4y ago
    Electoral politics is largely a failure. It's the last mile of any political movement, where activism has succeeded, the culture has changed, and the politicians are ready to sign off on it - nothing changes through electoral politics that hasn't a already changed from boots-on-the-ground activism. We are seeing people realize this and embrace other forms of political action. Think about the rise of "quiet quitting" - people are pushing back against this fatal culture of working endlessly to produce useless crap that's destroying our environment. We're on the cusp of something major. There's no guarantee it will get here in time to save us. But it's a real possibility.
    - raydiatian 4y ago
      > Electoralism is largely a failure Is like saying civilization-scale delegation is a failure, like saying mankind is a failure > Quiet quitting Maybe, but also maybe they’re all just like me, maybe my nihilism and apathy is raging against the machine despite my desire
      - maxbond 4y ago
        Regarding large scale decision making, I believe in democracy; the way we currently implement it, with many layers of indirection and a senate (in the US) which is designed to defeat the will of the people, is not the only possibility. If you're able to help to any degree, for any reason, then you've done your part. It'd probably be healthier if it were hopeful and motivated by wanting to build a better world, but if it's nihilism and rage, then that's okay. If all you can do is work less or consume less, or just not to stand in the way, then that's okay; that's enough.
    - kubanczyk 4y ago
      NB: You are using a non-standard definition of "electoralism". Democracy is not optimal for decision making (far from it), but at least it does allow the activists to have boots on the ground. Under other forms of government, activists tend to go more like IEDs on the ground. Still, considering the worst-case scenarios, if we're going to go authoritarian (a big IF!), I'd rather get there instead of being decimated by global warming rather than after.
      - maxbond 4y ago
        You're right, my bad. I meant electoral politics. I've edited the comment. Thank you. To be clear I do not advocate authoritarianism and would like to see direct democracy (or more direct, at the very least). I don't believe authoritarianism is compatible with surviving climate change, and even if I did I didn't think it would exacerbate climate change, I wouldn't advocate for it because I believe horizontal structures make better decisions & create more just societies then heirarchical ones.
  - bowsamic 4y ago
    That's why we need to have an actual political revolution, even if it is bloody. I don't understand this modern liberal obsession with doing everything within the law. A lot of meaningful historical social changes were done by breaking the law. It's absurd to think we won't have to do so
    - raydiatian 4y ago
      Good luck
      - bowsamic 4y ago
        Well people are waking up, and then we will hopefully have some figurehead that mobilises the wider public. I do not care if it's a majority (I am not a fan of democracy), but if it's enough to overpower the rest then that's hopefully enough. Clearly, capitalism is not an eternal fact of nature, it will eventually die
        raydiatian 4y ago
        > People are waking up but also > I am not a fan of democracy > Capitalism is not an eternal fact of nature
        bowsamic 4y ago
        I don't understand. Do you think that capitalism is an eternal fact of nature? A lot of liberals do, so that wouldn't be surprising
        raydiatian 4y ago
        > Do you think that capitalism is an eternal fact of nature? In our lifetime, when capitalism is the weaker fundamental force driving man’s priorities, I’ll come and give you all of my money.
        4y ago
  - hackerlight 4y ago
    > Whether you vote Democrat or Republican it doesn’t really make a difference What? Democrats just passed the Inflation Reduction Act, while Republicans are the lead villains in the world when it comes to aggravating the problem. https://earthjustice.org/blog/2022-august/inflation-reduction-act-biggest-climate-investment-fight-doesnt-stop https://earthjustice.org/blog/2022-august/inflation-reductio...
    - raydiatian 4y ago
      Nice. Only 20 years late. Progress!
- criddell 4y ago
  The people benefiting from the status quo is most of us. When I fly somewhere for vacation, it's terrible for the planet but it's great for me.
  - maxbond 4y ago
    Your choice to take a vacation was not a vote for more fossil fuel drilling, even if our economy is structured that way and our cultural myth is that a dollar is a vote and makes you complicit in the supply chain. You're trying to meet your needs to experience novelty and relax using the means at your disposal; the kerosene in that airplane could have been produced any number of ways, it could have been drawn from the air using nuclear power and Fischer-Tropsch synthesis if we structured our economy to meet the needs of society instead of structuring society to meet the needs of the economy.
    - criddell 4y ago
      > Your choice to take a vacation was not a vote for more fossil fuel drilling I don't know how you can say that. I know exactly where jet fuel comes from and knew my flight to Britain was going to melt something like 2 m^2 of arctic ice.
      - maxbond 4y ago
        Sure, but your goal was not for that to happen, was it? I assume you weren't trying to cause harm, even if you were aware of it; you were trying to get your needs met. Don't get me wrong, I try to avoid travelling and reduce my footprint where I can, but like they say, there is no ethical consumption under capitalism. Consuming less is great, but the problem is that this economy is structured in a way that will kill us, not that we need to consume things to live.
        criddell 4y ago
        Nobody’s goal is to warm the planet. Not even the most evil, mustache twirling capitalist wants to the worst of the global warming predictions come to light. Big change has to come from the bottom up. If the electorate doesn’t ask for changes to be made, politicians aren’t going to make them. Now that climate is a political left/right issue, it’s even less likely for meaningful change to happen. The right seems to have forgotten how much of our existing environmental protections were put in place by Republican administrations (especially Nikon’s).
shlant 4y ago
climate change it not a binary outcome, so stop interpreting and talking about it as such. Yea we probably won't be able to avoid some significant consequences but that doesn't mean that the only other outcome is a quickly deteriorating hellscape.
- raydiatian 4y ago
  In the comment section on article about *tipping points*. Priceless
  - wolfram74 4y ago
    I may be misreading but tipping point as defined as "self sustaining effects" just mean that we can't fix them by stopping the bad stuff, we also would need to start proactively gardening our own planet, which is something we've done on accident over the last century, it's possible to interrupt them.

maxbond 4y ago

I agree there has been a tremendous failure of leadership and that the people benefiting from the status quo are incapable of changing course, but let's get them away from that wheel.

raydiatian 4y ago
Good luck with all that. Whether you vote Democrat or Republican it doesn’t really make a difference. The specter of corporate interest is eternally allowed to possess legislative avatars and parade about guaranteeing that status quo. If there is a physical signal strong enough to orient the capable majority of 8 billion people with a common vector field in regard to the climate situation, I haven’t seen it yet.
- maxbond 4y ago
  Electoral politics is largely a failure. It's the last mile of any political movement, where activism has succeeded, the culture has changed, and the politicians are ready to sign off on it - nothing changes through electoral politics that hasn't a already changed from boots-on-the-ground activism. We are seeing people realize this and embrace other forms of political action. Think about the rise of "quiet quitting" - people are pushing back against this fatal culture of working endlessly to produce useless crap that's destroying our environment. We're on the cusp of something major. There's no guarantee it will get here in time to save us. But it's a real possibility.
  - raydiatian 4y ago
    > Electoralism is largely a failure Is like saying civilization-scale delegation is a failure, like saying mankind is a failure > Quiet quitting Maybe, but also maybe they’re all just like me, maybe my nihilism and apathy is raging against the machine despite my desire
    - maxbond 4y ago
      Regarding large scale decision making, I believe in democracy; the way we currently implement it, with many layers of indirection and a senate (in the US) which is designed to defeat the will of the people, is not the only possibility. If you're able to help to any degree, for any reason, then you've done your part. It'd probably be healthier if it were hopeful and motivated by wanting to build a better world, but if it's nihilism and rage, then that's okay. If all you can do is work less or consume less, or just not to stand in the way, then that's okay; that's enough.
  - kubanczyk 4y ago
    NB: You are using a non-standard definition of "electoralism". Democracy is not optimal for decision making (far from it), but at least it does allow the activists to have boots on the ground. Under other forms of government, activists tend to go more like IEDs on the ground. Still, considering the worst-case scenarios, if we're going to go authoritarian (a big IF!), I'd rather get there instead of being decimated by global warming rather than after.
    - maxbond 4y ago
      You're right, my bad. I meant electoral politics. I've edited the comment. Thank you. To be clear I do not advocate authoritarianism and would like to see direct democracy (or more direct, at the very least). I don't believe authoritarianism is compatible with surviving climate change, and even if I did I didn't think it would exacerbate climate change, I wouldn't advocate for it because I believe horizontal structures make better decisions & create more just societies then heirarchical ones.
- bowsamic 4y ago
  That's why we need to have an actual political revolution, even if it is bloody. I don't understand this modern liberal obsession with doing everything within the law. A lot of meaningful historical social changes were done by breaking the law. It's absurd to think we won't have to do so
  - raydiatian 4y ago
    Good luck
    - bowsamic 4y ago
      Well people are waking up, and then we will hopefully have some figurehead that mobilises the wider public. I do not care if it's a majority (I am not a fan of democracy), but if it's enough to overpower the rest then that's hopefully enough. Clearly, capitalism is not an eternal fact of nature, it will eventually die
      - raydiatian 4y ago
        > People are waking up but also > I am not a fan of democracy > Capitalism is not an eternal fact of nature
        bowsamic 4y ago
        I don't understand. Do you think that capitalism is an eternal fact of nature? A lot of liberals do, so that wouldn't be surprising
        raydiatian 4y ago
        > Do you think that capitalism is an eternal fact of nature? In our lifetime, when capitalism is the weaker fundamental force driving man’s priorities, I’ll come and give you all of my money.
        4y ago
- hackerlight 4y ago
  > Whether you vote Democrat or Republican it doesn’t really make a difference What? Democrats just passed the Inflation Reduction Act, while Republicans are the lead villains in the world when it comes to aggravating the problem. https://earthjustice.org/blog/2022-august/inflation-reduction-act-biggest-climate-investment-fight-doesnt-stop https://earthjustice.org/blog/2022-august/inflation-reductio...
  - raydiatian 4y ago
    Nice. Only 20 years late. Progress!
criddell 4y ago
The people benefiting from the status quo is most of us. When I fly somewhere for vacation, it's terrible for the planet but it's great for me.
- maxbond 4y ago
  Your choice to take a vacation was not a vote for more fossil fuel drilling, even if our economy is structured that way and our cultural myth is that a dollar is a vote and makes you complicit in the supply chain. You're trying to meet your needs to experience novelty and relax using the means at your disposal; the kerosene in that airplane could have been produced any number of ways, it could have been drawn from the air using nuclear power and Fischer-Tropsch synthesis if we structured our economy to meet the needs of society instead of structuring society to meet the needs of the economy.
  - criddell 4y ago
    > Your choice to take a vacation was not a vote for more fossil fuel drilling I don't know how you can say that. I know exactly where jet fuel comes from and knew my flight to Britain was going to melt something like 2 m^2 of arctic ice.
    - maxbond 4y ago
      Sure, but your goal was not for that to happen, was it? I assume you weren't trying to cause harm, even if you were aware of it; you were trying to get your needs met. Don't get me wrong, I try to avoid travelling and reduce my footprint where I can, but like they say, there is no ethical consumption under capitalism. Consuming less is great, but the problem is that this economy is structured in a way that will kill us, not that we need to consume things to live.
      - criddell 4y ago
        Nobody’s goal is to warm the planet. Not even the most evil, mustache twirling capitalist wants to the worst of the global warming predictions come to light. Big change has to come from the bottom up. If the electorate doesn’t ask for changes to be made, politicians aren’t going to make them. Now that climate is a political left/right issue, it’s even less likely for meaningful change to happen. The right seems to have forgotten how much of our existing environmental protections were put in place by Republican administrations (especially Nikon’s).

shlant 4y ago

climate change it not a binary outcome, so stop interpreting and talking about it as such. Yea we probably won't be able to avoid some significant consequences but that doesn't mean that the only other outcome is a quickly deteriorating hellscape.

raydiatian 4y ago
In the comment section on article about *tipping points*. Priceless
- wolfram74 4y ago
  I may be misreading but tipping point as defined as "self sustaining effects" just mean that we can't fix them by stopping the bad stuff, we also would need to start proactively gardening our own planet, which is something we've done on accident over the last century, it's possible to interrupt them.