4 ms·

> Carmen Twillie Ambar: archaic chase-and-detain policy regarding suspected shoplifters was the catalyst for the protests. If you witness a crime you can arres

> Carmen Twillie Ambar: archaic chase-and-detain policy regarding suspected shoplifters was the catalyst for the protests. If you witness a crime you can arrest the criminal. It's basic civics. Something you might find about in an institution of higher learning. Don't know if they have one of those in Oberlin.

scarface74 4y ago
Yes, what could possibly go wrong giving private citizens the right to detain other private citizens https://www.nytimes.com/article/ahmaud-arbery-shooting-georgia.html https://www.nytimes.com/article/ahmaud-arbery-shooting-georg...
- atdrummond 4y ago
  Not what happened here at all.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    > If you witness a crime you can arrest the criminal He did not say “if you witness a crime you can call the police”. I don’t want a society where any random yokel thinks he can detain someone.
    - krzyk 4y ago
      You can't argue with the law.
      - scarface74 4y ago
        The old Dixiecrats said the same thing about Jim Crow laws, laws against miscegenation, etc. But that law was in fact “argued against” in the very red Georgia and it was repealed by a Republican legislation and Republican governor
    - happyopossum 4y ago
      Hate to break it to you, but that society has existed for centuries - it’s an accepted rule in most common-law countries. For example, from Wikipedia: “In the United States, a private person may arrest another without a warrant for a crime occurring in their presence. However, the crimes for which this is permitted vary by state.” [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen%27s_arrest https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen%27s_arrest
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - mpweiher 4y ago
      Then you will have to essentially leave the civilised world: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen's_arrest#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen's_arrest#United_States
      - scarface74 4y ago
        Georgia just outlawed that practice after the very yokels who tried to make a citizens arrest because someone committed a crime of “looking like they don’t belong”
        miles 4y ago
        >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen's_arrest#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen's_arrest#United_States > Georgia just outlawed that practice Not exactly; they clarified the circumstances under which a citizen's arrest can be made[0], "including shopkeepers who witness shoplifters and restaurant owners and employees who witness 'dine and dash' customers." [0] https://www.npr.org/2021/05/11/995835333/in-ahmaud-arberys-name-georgia-repeals-citizens-arrest-law https://www.npr.org/2021/05/11/995835333/in-ahmaud-arberys-n...
- kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
  The only reason police can detain people is because they are citizens. They don't have any special status that other Americans don't enjoy.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    https://www.lawfareblog.com/what-qualified-immunity-and-what-does-it-have-do-police-reform https://www.lawfareblog.com/what-qualified-immunity-and-what... You really think any random person can detain someone? Do you also think you can force someone to stop for speeding? You can arrest someone for smoking weed as an ordinary citizen? Do you think you can sleep with a prostitute and then arrest them? https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2017/03/20/cops-prostitutes/99424728/ https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2017/03/20/c...
    - btilly 4y ago
      A police officer has better legal protections, and in practice can get away with a lot more. But in theory, what they are supposed to be able to do is surprisingly similar. On detaining a random person, quoting https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/citizen%27s_arrest https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/citizen%27s_arrest, In general, the ability to perform a citizen’s arrest is the same for a regular person as it is for a police officer without a warrant.
      - scarface74 4y ago
        So let’s say that I was going 80 miles per hour in a 55. I stopped at the gas station and you tried to detain me when I got out of the car. Let’s also say I have a licensed firearm. Also let’s say it was caught on camera that I was minding my business pumping my gas when you tried to detain me. How do you think that’s going to end up both right then and in a court of law? This is completely hypothetical, I don’t own a gun. But, because of the incident I posted. Even the very red GA and the Republican governor thought that it might not be a good idea to let any random yokel detain someone https://apnews.com/article/ahmaud-arbery-georgia-arrests-government-and-politics-276c5e51f5363112537ceab4159f9dc5 https://apnews.com/article/ahmaud-arbery-georgia-arrests-gov...
atdrummond 4y ago
If the individual involved hadn’t broken the phone of the worker, the chase never even would have occurred. The culpability being placed 100% on the bakery is illogical no matter how I look at it.
- emerged 4y ago
spaetzleesser 4y ago
Statements like “archaic chase-and-detain policy regarding suspected shoplifters was the catalyst for the protests” is why a lot of people think the left has lost their collective minds. They are making perpetrators into victims and blame the real victims for any bad consequences.
- sofixa 4y ago
  I think (I'm pretty far away from all of this so this is just my impression) the point of these people, often poorly made and sometimes exaggerated, is that petty crimes (especially in a world where everyone is insured anyways so the actual damage is minimal) are not worth ruining human lives over. The American justice system is atrocious, with for profit prisons and extremely high recidivism rates, not to mention racial bias at many levels. Is it worth it to throw away a human life in that black whole over a bottle of wine? In abstract both arguments (strict enforcement of all laws; and that the system's results are inhumane so lesser laws should be ignored) make surface level sense. A middle ground sounds best (some laws are loosened, leniency is used on first offenses, prison system reform to rehabilitate instead of punish, etc.).
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - subsistence234 4y ago
    See the wikipedia article to learn what actually happened, the Oberlin statement and the NYT article are misleading: An employee took a photo of the shoplifter in the act of stealing, the shoplifter got angry and assaulted the employee for this. That's when then the employee tried apprehending the shoplifter. Assault, not petty theft. Also, doesn't violence turn theft into robbery?
    - kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
      Theft is a crime. It warrants the same response as an assault.
  - 4y ago
StanislavPetrov 4y ago
Unfortunately a certain segment of people reject the agency of individuals, and see things only in terms of "identity". If someone who is considered part of a "marginalized" group commits a crime, this segment of the population doesn't put the responsibility for the crime on the individual, but on social and historical grievances suffered by whatever "marginalized" demographic the criminal has been arbitrarily assigned. Ironically (but unsurprisingly) it is is lost on this segment that it is incredibly demeaning to treat people like they have no agency or autonomy, and are simply agents of their environment.
Ekaros 4y ago
I really wonder how they would react to if someone tried to rob their premises. Get a unmarked van and just start carrying stuff out. Surely they wouldn't try to stop it?

scarface74 4y ago

Yes, what could possibly go wrong giving private citizens the right to detain other private citizens https://www.nytimes.com/article/ahmaud-arbery-shooting-georgia.html https://www.nytimes.com/article/ahmaud-arbery-shooting-georg...

atdrummond 4y ago
Not what happened here at all.
- scarface74 4y ago
  > If you witness a crime you can arrest the criminal He did not say “if you witness a crime you can call the police”. I don’t want a society where any random yokel thinks he can detain someone.
  - krzyk 4y ago
    You can't argue with the law.
    - scarface74 4y ago
      The old Dixiecrats said the same thing about Jim Crow laws, laws against miscegenation, etc. But that law was in fact “argued against” in the very red Georgia and it was repealed by a Republican legislation and Republican governor
  - happyopossum 4y ago
    Hate to break it to you, but that society has existed for centuries - it’s an accepted rule in most common-law countries. For example, from Wikipedia: “In the United States, a private person may arrest another without a warrant for a crime occurring in their presence. However, the crimes for which this is permitted vary by state.” [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen%27s_arrest https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen%27s_arrest
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - mpweiher 4y ago
    Then you will have to essentially leave the civilised world: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen's_arrest#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen's_arrest#United_States
    - scarface74 4y ago
      Georgia just outlawed that practice after the very yokels who tried to make a citizens arrest because someone committed a crime of “looking like they don’t belong”
      - miles 4y ago
        >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen's_arrest#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen's_arrest#United_States > Georgia just outlawed that practice Not exactly; they clarified the circumstances under which a citizen's arrest can be made[0], "including shopkeepers who witness shoplifters and restaurant owners and employees who witness 'dine and dash' customers." [0] https://www.npr.org/2021/05/11/995835333/in-ahmaud-arberys-name-georgia-repeals-citizens-arrest-law https://www.npr.org/2021/05/11/995835333/in-ahmaud-arberys-n...
kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
The only reason police can detain people is because they are citizens. They don't have any special status that other Americans don't enjoy.
- scarface74 4y ago
  https://www.lawfareblog.com/what-qualified-immunity-and-what-does-it-have-do-police-reform https://www.lawfareblog.com/what-qualified-immunity-and-what... You really think any random person can detain someone? Do you also think you can force someone to stop for speeding? You can arrest someone for smoking weed as an ordinary citizen? Do you think you can sleep with a prostitute and then arrest them? https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2017/03/20/cops-prostitutes/99424728/ https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2017/03/20/c...
  - btilly 4y ago
    A police officer has better legal protections, and in practice can get away with a lot more. But in theory, what they are supposed to be able to do is surprisingly similar. On detaining a random person, quoting https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/citizen%27s_arrest https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/citizen%27s_arrest, In general, the ability to perform a citizen’s arrest is the same for a regular person as it is for a police officer without a warrant.
    - scarface74 4y ago
      So let’s say that I was going 80 miles per hour in a 55. I stopped at the gas station and you tried to detain me when I got out of the car. Let’s also say I have a licensed firearm. Also let’s say it was caught on camera that I was minding my business pumping my gas when you tried to detain me. How do you think that’s going to end up both right then and in a court of law? This is completely hypothetical, I don’t own a gun. But, because of the incident I posted. Even the very red GA and the Republican governor thought that it might not be a good idea to let any random yokel detain someone https://apnews.com/article/ahmaud-arbery-georgia-arrests-government-and-politics-276c5e51f5363112537ceab4159f9dc5 https://apnews.com/article/ahmaud-arbery-georgia-arrests-gov...

atdrummond 4y ago

If the individual involved hadn’t broken the phone of the worker, the chase never even would have occurred. The culpability being placed 100% on the bakery is illogical no matter how I look at it.

emerged 4y ago

spaetzleesser 4y ago

Statements like “archaic chase-and-detain policy regarding suspected shoplifters was the catalyst for the protests” is why a lot of people think the left has lost their collective minds. They are making perpetrators into victims and blame the real victims for any bad consequences.

sofixa 4y ago
I think (I'm pretty far away from all of this so this is just my impression) the point of these people, often poorly made and sometimes exaggerated, is that petty crimes (especially in a world where everyone is insured anyways so the actual damage is minimal) are not worth ruining human lives over. The American justice system is atrocious, with for profit prisons and extremely high recidivism rates, not to mention racial bias at many levels. Is it worth it to throw away a human life in that black whole over a bottle of wine? In abstract both arguments (strict enforcement of all laws; and that the system's results are inhumane so lesser laws should be ignored) make surface level sense. A middle ground sounds best (some laws are loosened, leniency is used on first offenses, prison system reform to rehabilitate instead of punish, etc.).
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- subsistence234 4y ago
  See the wikipedia article to learn what actually happened, the Oberlin statement and the NYT article are misleading: An employee took a photo of the shoplifter in the act of stealing, the shoplifter got angry and assaulted the employee for this. That's when then the employee tried apprehending the shoplifter. Assault, not petty theft. Also, doesn't violence turn theft into robbery?
  - kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
    Theft is a crime. It warrants the same response as an assault.
- 4y ago

StanislavPetrov 4y ago

Unfortunately a certain segment of people reject the agency of individuals, and see things only in terms of "identity". If someone who is considered part of a "marginalized" group commits a crime, this segment of the population doesn't put the responsibility for the crime on the individual, but on social and historical grievances suffered by whatever "marginalized" demographic the criminal has been arbitrarily assigned. Ironically (but unsurprisingly) it is is lost on this segment that it is incredibly demeaning to treat people like they have no agency or autonomy, and are simply agents of their environment.

Ekaros 4y ago

I really wonder how they would react to if someone tried to rob their premises. Get a unmarked van and just start carrying stuff out. Surely they wouldn't try to stop it?