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Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

260 points by kunle 15y ago

thurn 15y ago
There ought to be a database of companies that give offers with very short expirations. Not necessarily condemning the practice, but it would be good to know. Yelp, for example, routinely gives offers with a 5-day acceptance window.
- codeonfire 15y ago
  This is every company. I've never heard of any company giving more than 3-5 days. If you work for a big corp, you know how unbelievably insecure management is, any delay at all would make them look very bad politically. When a hiring manager's whole career is based on appearances, which it usually is, a week is an eternity.
  - brlewis 15y ago
    I totally agree with you for most job offers. This article, though, is directed toward college students looking for summer jobs and internships. For a position that starts 7 months from now I would expect a longer window to be acceptable.
  - jarek 15y ago
    A large Seattle company gives at least two weeks to graduating students. The new graduate market is fairly specific, though, with lots of fairly interchangeable people coming on market at the same time.
  - caw 15y ago
    The career office at my school requires 2 weeks for students, including internships. Most of them play by the rules but I did have an internship offer that wanted a decision in 24 hours.
  - jfpoole 15y ago
    Sometimes the insecurity is justified. I've seen former managers extend offers only to retract them two days later when the staff requisition was retracted by upper management. If you're on a project and you need people this encourages you to hire as quickly as possible.
    - jrockway 15y ago
      We did this to several candidates we wanted to hire and they all stopped responding to us. Good people do not like to be fucked with, and now we have a bunch of idiots working in our department (who do not mind being fucked with, because getting paid to do nothing is better than not getting paid to do nothing).
- brown9-2 15y ago
  There ought to be a database of tech companies with shady employment practices, period.
  - Agathos 15y ago
    I think that's glassdoor.com.
Peroni 15y ago
Campus recruiters count on student’s high ethical standards. This goes far beyond campus recruiters. Most companies, at least here in the UK apply the same mentality to job offers. The key factor is absolute honesty & transparency. As Joel alludes to in the article, be open and tell them you are considering all of your options before making a decision. If pushed, turn the tables and ask them if they would offer a job to the first person they interviewed even if they were a good fit for the role? How do they know the next person they meet won't be a better fit. Pressure tactics are common place and this is an excellent example of one of the first times you will be faced with it and it will benefit you down the line when you start working for them and they press you for project deadlines and so on.
- keithpeter 15y ago
  I work as a teacher in the UK. Until quite recently, it was normal practice to interview for jobs in teaching, choose the candidate, and then have the candidate sign the contract that day. All the candidates were kept in a room onsite until the committee decided who to appoint. This system meant no one applied unless they wanted that specific job. Teaching has become more like other occupations over the last 10 years or so, but the expectation is still that you decide within a few days of being offered the job. Must be a UK thing.
Swizec 15y ago
Is it odd that the most surprising thing about this article, for me, was that people start looking for summer jobs in November? Also, why aren't people accepting every offer they get, then at the start of summer[1] send an email about changing their minds to everyone who isn't the best offer? Or even play offers against each other? [1] or rather a reasonable amount of time sooner
- rcfox 15y ago
  Ethics? Not wanting to burn bridges?
  - Swizec 15y ago
    I don't know about ethics, wouldn't everyone understand if a person's situation changes in 6 months? That's a lot of time. Say I accept an offer in December, then get a better one in May. Wouldn't the December offer be understanding of the fact that hey, I'm gonna have to change my mind here.
    - chubot 15y ago
      Uh yeah, ethics. You can treat life like a big exercise in game theory. But you're going to have this thing called a "reputation". Maybe you can get away with it on your campus interviews, but if you consistently lie to get the best of a situation, it will catch up to you. (Lying in this case being accepting an offer without the intention of taking it. As opposed to saying you need time to consider other offers.) Joel is right -- this is a tactic used by second-rate companies. First-rate companies don't pull bullshit like this. Same with first-rate employees. Accepting every offer and then reneging on all but one marks you as a second-rate employee. It's the behavior of the desperate. Personally I have always just applied for 1 or 2 jobs at a time so it's never been an issue.
      - jrockway 15y ago
        I doubt this. By what mechanism will recruiters at company A use to communicate your failure to accept their offer to company B? Accepting every offer and then reneging on all but one marks you as a second-rate employee. It's the behavior of the desperate. No it's not. I can see why you might think it's shady, but it's not desperate. It's the behavior of someone afraid to push back, which probably happens more to college students than to people that have been working for a few years. If you don't play the game, you lose.
simulate 15y ago
I'm surprised this is coming from Spolsky. Spolsky's companies must be getting big. Small companies can often only hire one person at a time and therefore need short acceptance windows. Small companies (< 50 people) often have only one specific position open. It is unethical to make more than one offer if you hiring for a single position. Therefore small companies often need short acceptance windows so they can make an offer to someone else who might want the position and fill the job.
- brown9-2 15y ago
  It's not a new message from Joel. This was originally posted on his site in 2008: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2008/11/26.html http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2008/11/26.html
- benatkin 15y ago
  Spolsky's companies are getting big, but this article was written a long time ago. He worked for Microsoft, so he has some experience with a big company, and he has definitely spent a lot of time thinking and reading about big companies. I think he wants to get the right number of employees but he'd rather have people genuinely interested in his companies than play the game. I think he also notices that some of the most promising candidates stop looking due to accepting one of these exploding offers, so he isn't able to conduct a thorough search.
- raganwald 15y ago
  He’s discussing the kind of company that recruits using mass-interviews of college students. Some are small companies, but most are BigCos with cubicle farms to fill.
- rmc 15y ago
  IME Small companies usually have a hard time hiring people, and sometimes it's months between "Hey we should hire someone" and when that person starts. Hence they have already waited a few months from when they started looking to your interview, and as such a few more weeks isn't going to kill them.
- thedufer 15y ago
alex_c 15y ago
There's no mention of the flip side of this. I only have one position, and I interview multiple candidates, several of which are good. If I make you an offer, I can't afford to sit around waiting for weeks for you to make up your mind: if you turn it down, chances are my other candidates are already gone, and now I have to start the whole process again from scratch. Edit: fair enough, I missed that Joel was talking about the specific context of internships.
- jarek 15y ago
  Fair point, but this article is aimed at students looking for full-time jobs or co-ops, most of which become available at roughly the same time, many months from January.
- cperciva 15y ago
  Most such companies have far more than one position they're trying to fill. Small startups generally aren't recruiting at college career fairs.
  - marshray 15y ago
    It depends on the size of the town. In smaller "university towns", often there are a few companies that are hiring specialized tech locally. They get the students who want to stay in town for whatever reason. I've been at a smaller company where we would typically get 0 or 1 new developers out of the local university each year. But if one of them verbally accepted and then didn't work out for whatever reason, it might be a disappointment, but it wasn't a crisis. Now that I think about it, it's probably that we would not realistically expect a new hire right out of school to be able to help with a short term deadline. Our products were complex and low-level, and the sense was that a new junior developer would probably not represent a net gain for about 6 months.
- delinka 15y ago
  In the context of student interns, you're in the wrong place to fill that position. Either that one position is important enough for hiring a Real Professional, or you'll survive not having an intern for a few more months. Having a single position that's critical to your company but attempting to fill it with an intern is disingenuous and perhaps even unethical (you're underpaying the intern based on the position's value to the company; you're not giving your shareholders actual value by hiring someone inexperienced; etc.)
funkah 15y ago
So accept the initial offer, do the interview with the #1 choice anyway, and if it works out, drop the runner-up. They don't need to be on your resume. The first choice doesn't need to know about any of this, though you might have to get creative with the interview scheduling. I have no doubt that the scenario Joel describes is real, but anyone who gets screwed this way needs a bit more of the "dog eat dog" mindset. It's unfortunate the world works this way sometimes, but it's all in the game. I sympathize with any young kid in this position though, the unemployment rate alone has to make the prospect of turning down an offer, any offer, seem insane.
- axiom 15y ago
  What would you think of a company that made someone an offer and a few weeks before the start of the internship said "you know, we actually found someone better so we won't be hiring you after all." Both the company and the employee should be honest. Period. Anything else and you're being an asshole who's screwing people over. Exploding offers are there 95% of the time because a company has a schedule to follow and can't just wait for someone to make up their mind for a month (especially for a 4 month internship which follows a tight schedule) - they need to be able to issue the offer to their second choice if the first choice isn't interested because otherwise they lose both. It's so easy to rationalize being dishonest by projecting bad motives on others.
  - orijing 15y ago
    I understand that we (on Hacker News) tend to come from a startup perspective, so it makes sense where you're coming from. But in the context that Joel was describing, that's not a valid comparison. Surely Joel isn't recommending dropping a startup of one founder using this tactic (it would be better to say no early). He specifically mentioned Microsoft as an example. If you as an individual got your offer rescinded at the last minute, that's a detriment to your career because you don't have time to make it up. If on the other hand you had 1/1000th of your offer rescinded at the last minute because you didn't give the other party a chance to consider other candidates ("give me an offer now" after the interview), well, sucks to be you but it's not so bad. Similarly, if a startup that NEEDED one extra employee to fill a critical role suddenly lost that employee, that's an unfortunate tragedy. If on the other hand, Microsoft lost one college grad, that's just a rounding error. I hope my explanation makes sense for why context is extremely important.
codeslush 15y ago
This seems a little short-sighted to me. It's noted that the company doesn't make the offer until they've had the candidate go through on-site interviews. It's not like they are making an offer on initial meeting. If both parties are interested, this should be acceptable. Look at it from another perspective. The hiring manager has an open position to fill. They want to fill it with someone who wants to work with them. They can't leave a job offer on the table for a long period of time, just to have the candidate say no. Having that offer outstanding prevents them from making an offer to other potentially qualified (and more eager) candidates. An interested candidate should have no problem with a decision at this point in the interview process. If the job offer is pulled because it is expired, and the candidate is really interested in the job, they should be able to get another offer if the position hasn't been filled by the time they got off the fence.
dsolomon 15y ago
Now that Joel has covered how credible and ethical recruiters, and the companies they support, should behave - when can we expect to see them?
- tptacek 15y ago
  You can't expect to see them, any more than a major car manufacturer can decide to enforce ethics in "their" sales rooms and remain competitive in the market place. The market dynamics for recruitment are dominated by adverse selection. The best recruiters can pick the best employers to work with and have little incentive to work in lesser-known companies. The (considerably larger) remainder of the market is run by sleazebag recruiters; that's all most companies will ever get to work with (internally or outsourced).
brown9-2 15y ago
This article is a word-for-word repost of an article Joel posted on his site in November 2008: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2008/11/26.html http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2008/11/26.html How does something like this work - does Betabeat ask Joel for permission to repost his content under their name/banner/ads? Do they work out a cut of ad revenue? Or do they just copy-and-paste the content without permission, figuring most writers won't complain?
- thedufer 15y ago
  They linked to the original at the top of the article. Doesn't look like an attempt to steal his work.
- andrewflnr 15y ago
  Thank you. Joel's site doesn't crash my iPad.
- spolsky 15y ago
  BetaBeat asked for permission to repost this, which I granted. They did not pay me for it.
  - warwick 15y ago
    As a writer, were there any benefits to you to grant that permission? Or was it more along the lines of there being no downside and it's nice to be asked?
- spolsky 15y ago
  BetaBeat asked for permission to repost this, which I granted. They did not pay me for it.
rmc 15y ago
“So, when can you let us know?” “Well,” you tell them, “I have another interview coming up in January. So I’ll let you know right after that.” “Oh,” they say. “That might be a problem. We really have to know by December 31st. Can you let us know by December 31st?” What you could do is answer the "When can you let us know?" question with another question "Well, when do you need to know?". Dec 31st might sound like they have some sensible end of year thing, but I predict scummy companies/recruiters will pick a date just before you said you had another interview. Try to see what they say first.
- dedward 15y ago
  Definitely... And never reveal other information that isnot their concern.
  - rmc 15y ago
    Exactly, things like previous or desired salaries then give them a benchmark to start the conversation. Let them put the first number on the table.
jackowayed 15y ago
Several people are looking at this from the employer side and claiming that this should be acceptable because it's hard when you have one position to fill and someone has a lock on it for a long time. While that is valid, especially for smaller companies, many companies definitely use this when that reasoning doesn't hold. I'm about to receive an offer for the summer from [very big company] that employs ~1000 interns in the location where I'd be. I would guess that the team I'll be on has several other intern slots. Despite that, and despite the fact that I wouldn't start my internship for 7 months, from what I hear they will definitely give me a short deadline to decide. This is purely a matter of them trying to get me to commit while my visit to them is fresh in my mind and before I can apply and consider too broadly. And while, from an ethical standpoint, you can make the claim that it's "hard" for employers and they "need" this, hiring people is also hard for employers. You can try to shift your burdens on to potential employees, but that's going to hurt you in the competition for talent. Any time that you are less employee-friendly than other companies, even with legitimate reason, you might lose out.
- dustingetz 15y ago
  date people "in your league". you can try to get with someone out of your league, but they're (much) more likely to string you along until something better comes along, or cheat on you. if you can't get hot enough people to date you, maybe you should work on yourself, and your social proof.
impendia 15y ago
> Trust me on this one: there’s not a single hiring manager in the world who wants to hire you but would get mad just because you’re considering other offers. Although Joel Spolsky certainly knows more than me, I'll ask anyway: Is that really true? Perhaps it is, but I would guess that this is a pretty big overstatement. However, I think it can safely be said (and this is maybe not obvious to many prospective interns) that if the hiring manager does get mad, then that's a big red flag, and if you got rejected for this reason then you dodged a bullet.
- GiraffeNecktie 15y ago
  He's just stating the obvious. If they think you're a desirable employee, they're not going to be offended if you are considering multiple offers. Or if they are, they are so unprofessional and petty, that you're better off staying away. This is business, not dating.
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
- tptacek 15y ago
  I believe it's true; in fact, if it was ever slightly overstated, it is less overstated now, when the competition for talent is even fiercer.
- run4yourlives 15y ago
  Of course it's true. Do you think the person doing the hiring has never been on the other side before? Any fool that gets their knickers in a knot because you're trying to find the best fit for yourself isn't worth working for, to be honest.
- buff-a 15y ago
  This is a really good point. I've worked for a company that had a great team, but HR were beyond words. Even where I to choose a word that would get me modded down, even here, it would fail to convey my animosity towards them. HR is usually pretty mellow about such things. Managers, on the other hand, can often be ego-maniacal fuckwads. But you don't (usually) want to work for those guys anyway.
DavidChouinard 15y ago
> Thanksgiving marks the start of tech’s most intense hiring season, as promising computer science students start looking for summer jobs and internships. I'm a student. Legitimate question, is this true? Should I be starting to get my act together for summer internships?
- nobody314159265 15y ago
  Yes - especially for the big name firms in the US
- wahnfrieden 15y ago
  Yes, particularly in December. Better to get started before companies have had to make decisions on many other applicants already, and this is about when some companies will start considering them in my experience. Other companies will start later so you're not screwed if you don start now, but you will be passing up some opportunities probably.
- briancurtin 15y ago
  It was true for me when I was in that spot. For the internship I had after my junior year, my on-site interview was the reason I skipped out on class and came home a day early for Thanksgiving break, and I was on the phone with them several weeks prior. IIRC, I think I got the actual acceptance in mid-January.
- caw 15y ago
  Entirely. At my co-op job (just graduated in May) we hired for summer starting in spring semester. If you start prepping now you can start applying day 1. Companies who know the internship schedule will post at the beginning because they want the most time to screen applications, even if that means doing 2-3 interview days on campus. The other upside is that you're not crunched for interview schedules. It's not unheard of for Google to get back to you a few weeks after you applied, or even after you past round 1. If you start applying in spring, you also have the option of starting in fall if that's your initiative. This would probably fall more in the co-op category than internship. This lets companies overlap you with another graduating co-op. If their schedule is summer, spring, fall, you could want fall to overlap. Or if they do 4 terms it's summer, spring, fall, summer. From experience, our interview pool sucked in beginning of fall, so don't apply for spring term if you can help it. We would interview in fall for the upcoming summer sometimes, but most of the time we were trying to hire to replace the students who stayed 5 or 6 terms. We found that it was mostly (though not entirely) rejects from spring hiring that couldn't find a job in summer and didn't go to school over that past summer. As a result of this happening for several years in a row, we stopped having on campus interviews in Fall, though if you applied to us directly we would interview you.
HnNoPassMailer 15y ago
In the sales world, this is called "fear of loss". You pressure the client to buy because they might loose an opportunity. Example: "This offer is only valid today!".
cletus 15y ago
A lot of people are viewing this from the employer, which I guess makes a certain amount of sense, but as a potential employee that's not your problem. The simple fact is that as an employee you should be looking out for yourself. Period. That means pushing back on a hard deadline that will exclude you from trying to get your dream (or simply preferred) job. If the company won't budge and you're unsure of your prospects then yes by all means accept it, go to the other interview and, if you get it, bail on the other one. For those that object to this on ethical grounds, consider this scenario: the company has their preferred employee who passes on the job and then they offer it to you. If that first guy comes back and changes his mind, will the company say "oh sorry, we've offered it to someone else". They might. Or they might not (and I've had it happen where they haven't). If your "safety employer" is a large company don't even give it a second thought. Microsoft or Yahoo will offer hundreds of jobs. Not everyone is going to show. It's factored in and the companies won't die if you don't show up. Be more careful when it comes to small companies but, as others have noted, smaller companies may be in a situation between getting 0 employees and getting 1. That's a big difference from getting 199 or 200. Ultimately though, the company's problems aren't your problems, particularly if they exploit your inexperience and relative lack of negotiating power to force you into making a premature decision. That company will have interviewed other people. It will simply extend an offer to the next person on the list. If they can't get someone to join them they're either not offering enough compensation or they're simply not desirable employers. Neither of which is your problem.
- nupark2 15y ago
  A lot of people are viewing this from the employer ... I view this as simple ethics. You keep your word, period. For those that object to this on ethical grounds, consider this scenario: the company has their preferred employee who passes on the job and then they offer it to you. If that first guy comes back and changes his mind, will the company say "oh sorry, we've offered it to someone else". They might. Or they might not (and I've had it happen where they haven't). If a company rescinds their offer due to no fault of your own (e.g, misrepresentation), then it's just as unethical as you rescinding your acceptance of the offer. If you're not sure, then simply do not accept the offer. They'll either wait (or they won't), but it's the only ethically sound decision available, and you will avoid the possibility of making a bad name for yourself. I'd certainly remember someone that accepted an offer and then backed out without cause. Nobody responsible does this.
rcfox 15y ago
I've noticed several comments about small companies not hiring at colleges. In my experience, this is not the case. It could just be that I went to university in Waterloo, Ontario (AKA Silicon Valley North) but many of the companies recruiting were quite small. One company I interviewed with remarked on how their previous intern wrote their entire Bluetooth stack. If anything, this is the perfect place for small companies to recruit. If the candidate turns out to be bad, you know their contract is up in a few months (it's probably possible to fire them early, but I imagine that that is a lot more effort). If the candidate is good, you can offer a full-time position. You skip the expensive hiring process and they can hit the ground running when they come back.
josephcooney 15y ago
I loved the phrase "with a crazy boss who couldn’t program a twenty out of an ATM"
the_one_smiley 15y ago
http://kuznets.harvard.edu/~aroth/jama.html http://kuznets.harvard.edu/~aroth/jama.html Offers with an acceptance deadline simplify life for the employer, so they do that. Refusing to accept the deadlines or reneging on acceptances simplifies life for the applicants, so they do that. Employers can respond by rescinding offers when someone better comes along, which applicants can counter by accepting and holding as many offers as possible. Employers then realize they must make multiple offers for each position with the intention of rescinding those made to applicants worse than the best one which accepted. Applicants likewise renege on every acceptance except the one from their most favored employer amongst the employers that extended them offers. The time scales on which this all happens compress until it is essentially one big chaotic race condition. When everyone is predictably acting in support of their own interests, the outcome is also somewhat predictable. It's interesting to observe the tech intern labor market retrace the path that other candidate / organization matching processes, ranging from sorority rush to medical residency applications, have gone down. The amusing bit is that the apparent endgame, where both sides submit ranklists to a central clearinghouse that uses some form of the stable marriage algorithm, sounds like something a tech company came up with.
herf 15y ago
This was a really common tactic at Microsoft back in the 90s, which is probably why Joel is familiar with it. It worked on me--I took an internship with MSFT instead of Apple, because Microsoft gave me under a week to respond, and the recruiting manager at Apple was on a week's vacation.
- stuffeverything 15y ago
  Microsoft is still very notorious for this. It's a shame, because out of the top five (Amazon, Apple, Facebook, Google, and Microsoft), I felt that they otherwise have the most pleasant and effective recruitment policies (Google being the polar opposite here). (I declined both MSFT's and Google's offers)
azth 15y ago
They use the same tactics at Amazon. Joel is spot on in this case, Amazon is just another mediocre company -- had to find out the hard way unfortunately.
- jrockway 15y ago
  Amazon did not give me a deadline on their offer. Theoretically, I could call them up today and be working in Seattle on Monday.
  - azth 15y ago
    Interesting. Are you a fresh college grad?
    - jrockway 15y ago
      No, so perhaps my experience is not relevant to the discussion. But companies are as anxious to hire "real people" as they are interns.
      - azth 15y ago
        True, but I was just wondering if they'd play the same trick on 'real people' :) Since it's not uncommon for fresh grads to be interviewing with several companies at the same time.
jrockway 15y ago
Does this ever work on anyone? I got an offer from Google that "expires in 5 days". I said, "I'm not going to decide that quickly, so I'll just re-apply when I'm sure I want to work there." Suddenly, the deadline was gone.
- thedufer 15y ago
  I've seen the same thing happen to 2 friends who applied to Microsoft, if you replace "gone" with "extended 2-3 months", which basically amounts to the same.
alphamale3000 15y ago
Old news. It's 3 years old. I love when the media digs out seasonal stuff. Sigh...
podperson 15y ago
In general, one should be aware of the six principles of persuasion as outlined by Cialdini in Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion of which the "exploding" part is an example of "scarcity". These principles are just as relevant to buying a house or car as negotiating for a job. For the record, the six principles are: * reciprocity (hey, they flew you out there, right?) * commitment and consistency (they get you to agree in principle to working for them before they make a concrete offer) * social proof (look at the great people who already work here) * authority * liking * scarcity (this offer is strictly limited) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Cialdini#6_key_principles_of_persuasion_by_Robert_Cialdini http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Cialdini#6_key_principle...
refurb 15y ago
I would seriously disagree with verbally accepting an offer and then reneging. It's unprofessional and although unlikely when you're just coming out college, it can follow you through your career. I've been in this situation before and what's worked for me is to play the same game they do. If they tell you that they need an answer by a certain date, you tell them you're very interested in their offer, but you have already setup other interviews that you want to see through, because it's the right thing to do. Leave it at that. Don't try and get the date changed, just be non-committal, and tell them you'll do your best. Job offers are very rarely yanked because you didn't met the first deadline for an offer. When they call you 2 days before the deadline and ask if you have an answer, tell them you need "X" amount of time and then you'll give them a decision. Don't say "Can I have two more weeks", say "If you can wait until Jan 15th, I will give you an answer then". Recruiters have been jerked around before and if you provide your own deadline (and hold yourself to it) they'll often go along with it. RF
wavephorm 15y ago
Whatever iPad mobile theme is being used here, please DO NOT use it on your own website. It is not usable, the font is too small, and frequently crashes my iPad.
deleted 15y ago
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kd1221 15y ago
I graduated right before the peak of the 2000 dotcom bust, and I got a two exploding offers that I didn't accept. The offer I ended up taking was the opposite of an exploding offer: the nebulous offer. I was told I was being tendered an offer. Great! I was ecstatic because the company was a "leader" in the industry I wanted to work in. Ten days and several phone calls later, my offer was still being "worked on." At that point I got impatient and continued interviewing. I had two more offers come in during the formation of the nebulous offer: one of the exploding type and one without conditions. I informed my dream company of the exploding offer and magically the paperwork appeared for their offer the next day. I took it. 6 months later I got laid off along with 20% of the staff. Lesson learned: a company that treats you poorly when you're in recruitment will treat you poorly when you're working for them.
lionhearted 15y ago
Very good article. 100% agree. One thing to keep in mind also is that pushing back against this negotiation tactic is good, but sometimes people do just have to move fast. I had five interviews two Fridays ago, and I offered the second candidate the job - starting on Monday, 20% higher pay than she asked for in her resume, and interesting roles. But I had to know right away, because I had to know what to do with the next set of candidates. Also worth noting is that she didn't have a job currently - her previous company pulled out of China, so there was no risk to her of joining. I was more careful when I recruited a woman who was working at the U.S. Embassy, which was a fantastic stable position with solid pay - I asked her to start here part time for a week or two to make sure there was a fit before quitting a very good job. Anyways, point is, people want decisions fast for many reasons. Look to see if it's in your best interest to decide fast, and decide fast if so. If it's not, push back. Not all fast paces are petty bargaining moves though.
pace 15y ago
"You’re going to spend several years of your life in some cold dark cubicle with a crazy boss who couldn’t program a twenty out of an ATM,"
cookiecaper 15y ago
I think the real answer to this is as simple as disclosure. If you accept the "exploding offer", you should be explicit and clear that you are still considering other positions, and your acceptance is tentative. The company is fully informed of the possibility that you may leave in the near future and it is then their choice if they decide to continue with you or not. If you don't want to provide that level of disclosure, you should inform the recruiter that you won't have a decision by x date, only by y date, and they'll have to live with that. They may continue to pursue or they may forgo your candidacy, but either way you were honest. There are plenty of gigs out there that you can get legitimately, even if a would-be ill-gotten gig is presented first. You shouldn't give in. I don't think it's acceptable to accept an offer with the intent to leave in short order without providing disclosure of that possibility. Justifications like "Microsoft will survive" don't make your actions any more correct or honorable and should not be used. Man up and be honest with your potential employers.
jakejake 15y ago
This article seems very specific to cattle-call hiring of summer interns. The work doesn't begin for several months after the offer is made and this is a somewhat unique situation to students and internships at large companies. When an offer is made for full-time, permanent employment a response is normally expected pretty quickly - within a few days. The interview process may take weeks or months but once the offer is made, it's expected that all parties are fairly serious and you are ready to turn in your 2-weeks notice if you are already employed, or possibly start right away if not. The rules may be different for these two situations. In the latter, I definitely would not suggest accepting an offer and then backing out as a strategy. If you do, at least be aware that you may be burning bridges along the way.
jdietrich 15y ago
General principle: Avoid doing business with people who use the same techniques as telemarketers. An exploding offer is just as low and dirty as "Call within the next 20 minutes and you'll get a bonus set of steak knives, absolutely free!". It's an attempt to take advantage of a basic cognitive bias, loss aversion, in order to coerce you into acting irrationally. If a company really does have a legitimate business reason to take on people in a hurry, they will negotiate. If I need a rush job from my printers, I pay extra. If I need a package sending next day, I pay extra. If I truly, desperately needed an extra employee to work on an urgent project, why on earth wouldn't I pay more to get the best possible candidate? You have no ethical obligations to someone who is trying to deceive and exploit you.

260 points by kunle 15y ago

thurn 15y ago

There ought to be a database of companies that give offers with very short expirations. Not necessarily condemning the practice, but it would be good to know. Yelp, for example, routinely gives offers with a 5-day acceptance window.

codeonfire 15y ago
This is every company. I've never heard of any company giving more than 3-5 days. If you work for a big corp, you know how unbelievably insecure management is, any delay at all would make them look very bad politically. When a hiring manager's whole career is based on appearances, which it usually is, a week is an eternity.
- brlewis 15y ago
  I totally agree with you for most job offers. This article, though, is directed toward college students looking for summer jobs and internships. For a position that starts 7 months from now I would expect a longer window to be acceptable.
- jarek 15y ago
  A large Seattle company gives at least two weeks to graduating students. The new graduate market is fairly specific, though, with lots of fairly interchangeable people coming on market at the same time.
- caw 15y ago
  The career office at my school requires 2 weeks for students, including internships. Most of them play by the rules but I did have an internship offer that wanted a decision in 24 hours.
- jfpoole 15y ago
  Sometimes the insecurity is justified. I've seen former managers extend offers only to retract them two days later when the staff requisition was retracted by upper management. If you're on a project and you need people this encourages you to hire as quickly as possible.
  - jrockway 15y ago
    We did this to several candidates we wanted to hire and they all stopped responding to us. Good people do not like to be fucked with, and now we have a bunch of idiots working in our department (who do not mind being fucked with, because getting paid to do nothing is better than not getting paid to do nothing).
brown9-2 15y ago
There ought to be a database of tech companies with shady employment practices, period.
- Agathos 15y ago
  I think that's glassdoor.com.

Peroni 15y ago

Campus recruiters count on student’s high ethical standards. This goes far beyond campus recruiters. Most companies, at least here in the UK apply the same mentality to job offers. The key factor is absolute honesty & transparency. As Joel alludes to in the article, be open and tell them you are considering all of your options before making a decision. If pushed, turn the tables and ask them if they would offer a job to the first person they interviewed even if they were a good fit for the role? How do they know the next person they meet won't be a better fit. Pressure tactics are common place and this is an excellent example of one of the first times you will be faced with it and it will benefit you down the line when you start working for them and they press you for project deadlines and so on.

keithpeter 15y ago
I work as a teacher in the UK. Until quite recently, it was normal practice to interview for jobs in teaching, choose the candidate, and then have the candidate sign the contract that day. All the candidates were kept in a room onsite until the committee decided who to appoint. This system meant no one applied unless they wanted that specific job. Teaching has become more like other occupations over the last 10 years or so, but the expectation is still that you decide within a few days of being offered the job. Must be a UK thing.

Swizec 15y ago

Is it odd that the most surprising thing about this article, for me, was that people start looking for summer jobs in November? Also, why aren't people accepting every offer they get, then at the start of summer[1] send an email about changing their minds to everyone who isn't the best offer? Or even play offers against each other? [1] or rather a reasonable amount of time sooner

rcfox 15y ago
Ethics? Not wanting to burn bridges?
- Swizec 15y ago
  I don't know about ethics, wouldn't everyone understand if a person's situation changes in 6 months? That's a lot of time. Say I accept an offer in December, then get a better one in May. Wouldn't the December offer be understanding of the fact that hey, I'm gonna have to change my mind here.
  - chubot 15y ago
    Uh yeah, ethics. You can treat life like a big exercise in game theory. But you're going to have this thing called a "reputation". Maybe you can get away with it on your campus interviews, but if you consistently lie to get the best of a situation, it will catch up to you. (Lying in this case being accepting an offer without the intention of taking it. As opposed to saying you need time to consider other offers.) Joel is right -- this is a tactic used by second-rate companies. First-rate companies don't pull bullshit like this. Same with first-rate employees. Accepting every offer and then reneging on all but one marks you as a second-rate employee. It's the behavior of the desperate. Personally I have always just applied for 1 or 2 jobs at a time so it's never been an issue.
    - jrockway 15y ago
      I doubt this. By what mechanism will recruiters at company A use to communicate your failure to accept their offer to company B? Accepting every offer and then reneging on all but one marks you as a second-rate employee. It's the behavior of the desperate. No it's not. I can see why you might think it's shady, but it's not desperate. It's the behavior of someone afraid to push back, which probably happens more to college students than to people that have been working for a few years. If you don't play the game, you lose.

simulate 15y ago

I'm surprised this is coming from Spolsky. Spolsky's companies must be getting big. Small companies can often only hire one person at a time and therefore need short acceptance windows. Small companies (< 50 people) often have only one specific position open. It is unethical to make more than one offer if you hiring for a single position. Therefore small companies often need short acceptance windows so they can make an offer to someone else who might want the position and fill the job.

brown9-2 15y ago
It's not a new message from Joel. This was originally posted on his site in 2008: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2008/11/26.html http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2008/11/26.html
benatkin 15y ago
Spolsky's companies are getting big, but this article was written a long time ago. He worked for Microsoft, so he has some experience with a big company, and he has definitely spent a lot of time thinking and reading about big companies. I think he wants to get the right number of employees but he'd rather have people genuinely interested in his companies than play the game. I think he also notices that some of the most promising candidates stop looking due to accepting one of these exploding offers, so he isn't able to conduct a thorough search.
raganwald 15y ago
He’s discussing the kind of company that recruits using mass-interviews of college students. Some are small companies, but most are BigCos with cubicle farms to fill.
rmc 15y ago
IME Small companies usually have a hard time hiring people, and sometimes it's months between "Hey we should hire someone" and when that person starts. Hence they have already waited a few months from when they started looking to your interview, and as such a few more weeks isn't going to kill them.
thedufer 15y ago

alex_c 15y ago

There's no mention of the flip side of this. I only have one position, and I interview multiple candidates, several of which are good. If I make you an offer, I can't afford to sit around waiting for weeks for you to make up your mind: if you turn it down, chances are my other candidates are already gone, and now I have to start the whole process again from scratch. Edit: fair enough, I missed that Joel was talking about the specific context of internships.

jarek 15y ago
Fair point, but this article is aimed at students looking for full-time jobs or co-ops, most of which become available at roughly the same time, many months from January.
cperciva 15y ago
Most such companies have far more than one position they're trying to fill. Small startups generally aren't recruiting at college career fairs.
- marshray 15y ago
  It depends on the size of the town. In smaller "university towns", often there are a few companies that are hiring specialized tech locally. They get the students who want to stay in town for whatever reason. I've been at a smaller company where we would typically get 0 or 1 new developers out of the local university each year. But if one of them verbally accepted and then didn't work out for whatever reason, it might be a disappointment, but it wasn't a crisis. Now that I think about it, it's probably that we would not realistically expect a new hire right out of school to be able to help with a short term deadline. Our products were complex and low-level, and the sense was that a new junior developer would probably not represent a net gain for about 6 months.
delinka 15y ago
In the context of student interns, you're in the wrong place to fill that position. Either that one position is important enough for hiring a Real Professional, or you'll survive not having an intern for a few more months. Having a single position that's critical to your company but attempting to fill it with an intern is disingenuous and perhaps even unethical (you're underpaying the intern based on the position's value to the company; you're not giving your shareholders actual value by hiring someone inexperienced; etc.)

funkah 15y ago

So accept the initial offer, do the interview with the #1 choice anyway, and if it works out, drop the runner-up. They don't need to be on your resume. The first choice doesn't need to know about any of this, though you might have to get creative with the interview scheduling. I have no doubt that the scenario Joel describes is real, but anyone who gets screwed this way needs a bit more of the "dog eat dog" mindset. It's unfortunate the world works this way sometimes, but it's all in the game. I sympathize with any young kid in this position though, the unemployment rate alone has to make the prospect of turning down an offer, any offer, seem insane.

axiom 15y ago
What would you think of a company that made someone an offer and a few weeks before the start of the internship said "you know, we actually found someone better so we won't be hiring you after all." Both the company and the employee should be honest. Period. Anything else and you're being an asshole who's screwing people over. Exploding offers are there 95% of the time because a company has a schedule to follow and can't just wait for someone to make up their mind for a month (especially for a 4 month internship which follows a tight schedule) - they need to be able to issue the offer to their second choice if the first choice isn't interested because otherwise they lose both. It's so easy to rationalize being dishonest by projecting bad motives on others.
- orijing 15y ago
  I understand that we (on Hacker News) tend to come from a startup perspective, so it makes sense where you're coming from. But in the context that Joel was describing, that's not a valid comparison. Surely Joel isn't recommending dropping a startup of one founder using this tactic (it would be better to say no early). He specifically mentioned Microsoft as an example. If you as an individual got your offer rescinded at the last minute, that's a detriment to your career because you don't have time to make it up. If on the other hand you had 1/1000th of your offer rescinded at the last minute because you didn't give the other party a chance to consider other candidates ("give me an offer now" after the interview), well, sucks to be you but it's not so bad. Similarly, if a startup that NEEDED one extra employee to fill a critical role suddenly lost that employee, that's an unfortunate tragedy. If on the other hand, Microsoft lost one college grad, that's just a rounding error. I hope my explanation makes sense for why context is extremely important.

codeslush 15y ago

This seems a little short-sighted to me. It's noted that the company doesn't make the offer until they've had the candidate go through on-site interviews. It's not like they are making an offer on initial meeting. If both parties are interested, this should be acceptable. Look at it from another perspective. The hiring manager has an open position to fill. They want to fill it with someone who wants to work with them. They can't leave a job offer on the table for a long period of time, just to have the candidate say no. Having that offer outstanding prevents them from making an offer to other potentially qualified (and more eager) candidates. An interested candidate should have no problem with a decision at this point in the interview process. If the job offer is pulled because it is expired, and the candidate is really interested in the job, they should be able to get another offer if the position hasn't been filled by the time they got off the fence.

dsolomon 15y ago

Now that Joel has covered how credible and ethical recruiters, and the companies they support, should behave - when can we expect to see them?

tptacek 15y ago
You can't expect to see them, any more than a major car manufacturer can decide to enforce ethics in "their" sales rooms and remain competitive in the market place. The market dynamics for recruitment are dominated by adverse selection. The best recruiters can pick the best employers to work with and have little incentive to work in lesser-known companies. The (considerably larger) remainder of the market is run by sleazebag recruiters; that's all most companies will ever get to work with (internally or outsourced).

brown9-2 15y ago

This article is a word-for-word repost of an article Joel posted on his site in November 2008: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2008/11/26.html http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2008/11/26.html How does something like this work - does Betabeat ask Joel for permission to repost his content under their name/banner/ads? Do they work out a cut of ad revenue? Or do they just copy-and-paste the content without permission, figuring most writers won't complain?

thedufer 15y ago
They linked to the original at the top of the article. Doesn't look like an attempt to steal his work.
andrewflnr 15y ago
Thank you. Joel's site doesn't crash my iPad.
spolsky 15y ago
BetaBeat asked for permission to repost this, which I granted. They did not pay me for it.
- warwick 15y ago
  As a writer, were there any benefits to you to grant that permission? Or was it more along the lines of there being no downside and it's nice to be asked?
spolsky 15y ago
BetaBeat asked for permission to repost this, which I granted. They did not pay me for it.

rmc 15y ago

“So, when can you let us know?” “Well,” you tell them, “I have another interview coming up in January. So I’ll let you know right after that.” “Oh,” they say. “That might be a problem. We really have to know by December 31st. Can you let us know by December 31st?” What you could do is answer the "When can you let us know?" question with another question "Well, when do you need to know?". Dec 31st might sound like they have some sensible end of year thing, but I predict scummy companies/recruiters will pick a date just before you said you had another interview. Try to see what they say first.

dedward 15y ago
Definitely... And never reveal other information that isnot their concern.
- rmc 15y ago
  Exactly, things like previous or desired salaries then give them a benchmark to start the conversation. Let them put the first number on the table.

jackowayed 15y ago

Several people are looking at this from the employer side and claiming that this should be acceptable because it's hard when you have one position to fill and someone has a lock on it for a long time. While that is valid, especially for smaller companies, many companies definitely use this when that reasoning doesn't hold. I'm about to receive an offer for the summer from [very big company] that employs ~1000 interns in the location where I'd be. I would guess that the team I'll be on has several other intern slots. Despite that, and despite the fact that I wouldn't start my internship for 7 months, from what I hear they will definitely give me a short deadline to decide. This is purely a matter of them trying to get me to commit while my visit to them is fresh in my mind and before I can apply and consider too broadly. And while, from an ethical standpoint, you can make the claim that it's "hard" for employers and they "need" this, hiring people is also hard for employers. You can try to shift your burdens on to potential employees, but that's going to hurt you in the competition for talent. Any time that you are less employee-friendly than other companies, even with legitimate reason, you might lose out.

dustingetz 15y ago
date people "in your league". you can try to get with someone out of your league, but they're (much) more likely to string you along until something better comes along, or cheat on you. if you can't get hot enough people to date you, maybe you should work on yourself, and your social proof.

impendia 15y ago

> Trust me on this one: there’s not a single hiring manager in the world who wants to hire you but would get mad just because you’re considering other offers. Although Joel Spolsky certainly knows more than me, I'll ask anyway: Is that really true? Perhaps it is, but I would guess that this is a pretty big overstatement. However, I think it can safely be said (and this is maybe not obvious to many prospective interns) that if the hiring manager does get mad, then that's a big red flag, and if you got rejected for this reason then you dodged a bullet.

GiraffeNecktie 15y ago
He's just stating the obvious. If they think you're a desirable employee, they're not going to be offended if you are considering multiple offers. Or if they are, they are so unprofessional and petty, that you're better off staying away. This is business, not dating.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
tptacek 15y ago
I believe it's true; in fact, if it was ever slightly overstated, it is less overstated now, when the competition for talent is even fiercer.
run4yourlives 15y ago
Of course it's true. Do you think the person doing the hiring has never been on the other side before? Any fool that gets their knickers in a knot because you're trying to find the best fit for yourself isn't worth working for, to be honest.
buff-a 15y ago
This is a really good point. I've worked for a company that had a great team, but HR were beyond words. Even where I to choose a word that would get me modded down, even here, it would fail to convey my animosity towards them. HR is usually pretty mellow about such things. Managers, on the other hand, can often be ego-maniacal fuckwads. But you don't (usually) want to work for those guys anyway.

DavidChouinard 15y ago

> Thanksgiving marks the start of tech’s most intense hiring season, as promising computer science students start looking for summer jobs and internships. I'm a student. Legitimate question, is this true? Should I be starting to get my act together for summer internships?

nobody314159265 15y ago
Yes - especially for the big name firms in the US
wahnfrieden 15y ago
Yes, particularly in December. Better to get started before companies have had to make decisions on many other applicants already, and this is about when some companies will start considering them in my experience. Other companies will start later so you're not screwed if you don start now, but you will be passing up some opportunities probably.
briancurtin 15y ago
It was true for me when I was in that spot. For the internship I had after my junior year, my on-site interview was the reason I skipped out on class and came home a day early for Thanksgiving break, and I was on the phone with them several weeks prior. IIRC, I think I got the actual acceptance in mid-January.
caw 15y ago
Entirely. At my co-op job (just graduated in May) we hired for summer starting in spring semester. If you start prepping now you can start applying day 1. Companies who know the internship schedule will post at the beginning because they want the most time to screen applications, even if that means doing 2-3 interview days on campus. The other upside is that you're not crunched for interview schedules. It's not unheard of for Google to get back to you a few weeks after you applied, or even after you past round 1. If you start applying in spring, you also have the option of starting in fall if that's your initiative. This would probably fall more in the co-op category than internship. This lets companies overlap you with another graduating co-op. If their schedule is summer, spring, fall, you could want fall to overlap. Or if they do 4 terms it's summer, spring, fall, summer. From experience, our interview pool sucked in beginning of fall, so don't apply for spring term if you can help it. We would interview in fall for the upcoming summer sometimes, but most of the time we were trying to hire to replace the students who stayed 5 or 6 terms. We found that it was mostly (though not entirely) rejects from spring hiring that couldn't find a job in summer and didn't go to school over that past summer. As a result of this happening for several years in a row, we stopped having on campus interviews in Fall, though if you applied to us directly we would interview you.

HnNoPassMailer 15y ago

In the sales world, this is called "fear of loss". You pressure the client to buy because they might loose an opportunity. Example: "This offer is only valid today!".

cletus 15y ago

A lot of people are viewing this from the employer, which I guess makes a certain amount of sense, but as a potential employee that's not your problem. The simple fact is that as an employee you should be looking out for yourself. Period. That means pushing back on a hard deadline that will exclude you from trying to get your dream (or simply preferred) job. If the company won't budge and you're unsure of your prospects then yes by all means accept it, go to the other interview and, if you get it, bail on the other one. For those that object to this on ethical grounds, consider this scenario: the company has their preferred employee who passes on the job and then they offer it to you. If that first guy comes back and changes his mind, will the company say "oh sorry, we've offered it to someone else". They might. Or they might not (and I've had it happen where they haven't). If your "safety employer" is a large company don't even give it a second thought. Microsoft or Yahoo will offer hundreds of jobs. Not everyone is going to show. It's factored in and the companies won't die if you don't show up. Be more careful when it comes to small companies but, as others have noted, smaller companies may be in a situation between getting 0 employees and getting 1. That's a big difference from getting 199 or 200. Ultimately though, the company's problems aren't your problems, particularly if they exploit your inexperience and relative lack of negotiating power to force you into making a premature decision. That company will have interviewed other people. It will simply extend an offer to the next person on the list. If they can't get someone to join them they're either not offering enough compensation or they're simply not desirable employers. Neither of which is your problem.

nupark2 15y ago
A lot of people are viewing this from the employer ... I view this as simple ethics. You keep your word, period. For those that object to this on ethical grounds, consider this scenario: the company has their preferred employee who passes on the job and then they offer it to you. If that first guy comes back and changes his mind, will the company say "oh sorry, we've offered it to someone else". They might. Or they might not (and I've had it happen where they haven't). If a company rescinds their offer due to no fault of your own (e.g, misrepresentation), then it's just as unethical as you rescinding your acceptance of the offer. If you're not sure, then simply do not accept the offer. They'll either wait (or they won't), but it's the only ethically sound decision available, and you will avoid the possibility of making a bad name for yourself. I'd certainly remember someone that accepted an offer and then backed out without cause. Nobody responsible does this.

rcfox 15y ago

I've noticed several comments about small companies not hiring at colleges. In my experience, this is not the case. It could just be that I went to university in Waterloo, Ontario (AKA Silicon Valley North) but many of the companies recruiting were quite small. One company I interviewed with remarked on how their previous intern wrote their entire Bluetooth stack. If anything, this is the perfect place for small companies to recruit. If the candidate turns out to be bad, you know their contract is up in a few months (it's probably possible to fire them early, but I imagine that that is a lot more effort). If the candidate is good, you can offer a full-time position. You skip the expensive hiring process and they can hit the ground running when they come back.

josephcooney 15y ago

I loved the phrase "with a crazy boss who couldn’t program a twenty out of an ATM"

the_one_smiley 15y ago

http://kuznets.harvard.edu/~aroth/jama.html http://kuznets.harvard.edu/~aroth/jama.html Offers with an acceptance deadline simplify life for the employer, so they do that. Refusing to accept the deadlines or reneging on acceptances simplifies life for the applicants, so they do that. Employers can respond by rescinding offers when someone better comes along, which applicants can counter by accepting and holding as many offers as possible. Employers then realize they must make multiple offers for each position with the intention of rescinding those made to applicants worse than the best one which accepted. Applicants likewise renege on every acceptance except the one from their most favored employer amongst the employers that extended them offers. The time scales on which this all happens compress until it is essentially one big chaotic race condition. When everyone is predictably acting in support of their own interests, the outcome is also somewhat predictable. It's interesting to observe the tech intern labor market retrace the path that other candidate / organization matching processes, ranging from sorority rush to medical residency applications, have gone down. The amusing bit is that the apparent endgame, where both sides submit ranklists to a central clearinghouse that uses some form of the stable marriage algorithm, sounds like something a tech company came up with.

herf 15y ago

This was a really common tactic at Microsoft back in the 90s, which is probably why Joel is familiar with it. It worked on me--I took an internship with MSFT instead of Apple, because Microsoft gave me under a week to respond, and the recruiting manager at Apple was on a week's vacation.

stuffeverything 15y ago
Microsoft is still very notorious for this. It's a shame, because out of the top five (Amazon, Apple, Facebook, Google, and Microsoft), I felt that they otherwise have the most pleasant and effective recruitment policies (Google being the polar opposite here). (I declined both MSFT's and Google's offers)

azth 15y ago

They use the same tactics at Amazon. Joel is spot on in this case, Amazon is just another mediocre company -- had to find out the hard way unfortunately.

jrockway 15y ago
Amazon did not give me a deadline on their offer. Theoretically, I could call them up today and be working in Seattle on Monday.
- azth 15y ago
  Interesting. Are you a fresh college grad?
  - jrockway 15y ago
    No, so perhaps my experience is not relevant to the discussion. But companies are as anxious to hire "real people" as they are interns.
    - azth 15y ago
      True, but I was just wondering if they'd play the same trick on 'real people' :) Since it's not uncommon for fresh grads to be interviewing with several companies at the same time.

jrockway 15y ago

Does this ever work on anyone? I got an offer from Google that "expires in 5 days". I said, "I'm not going to decide that quickly, so I'll just re-apply when I'm sure I want to work there." Suddenly, the deadline was gone.

thedufer 15y ago
I've seen the same thing happen to 2 friends who applied to Microsoft, if you replace "gone" with "extended 2-3 months", which basically amounts to the same.

alphamale3000 15y ago

Old news. It's 3 years old. I love when the media digs out seasonal stuff. Sigh...

podperson 15y ago

In general, one should be aware of the six principles of persuasion as outlined by Cialdini in Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion of which the "exploding" part is an example of "scarcity". These principles are just as relevant to buying a house or car as negotiating for a job. For the record, the six principles are: * reciprocity (hey, they flew you out there, right?) * commitment and consistency (they get you to agree in principle to working for them before they make a concrete offer) * social proof (look at the great people who already work here) * authority * liking * scarcity (this offer is strictly limited) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Cialdini#6_key_principles_of_persuasion_by_Robert_Cialdini http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Cialdini#6_key_principle...

refurb 15y ago

I would seriously disagree with verbally accepting an offer and then reneging. It's unprofessional and although unlikely when you're just coming out college, it can follow you through your career. I've been in this situation before and what's worked for me is to play the same game they do. If they tell you that they need an answer by a certain date, you tell them you're very interested in their offer, but you have already setup other interviews that you want to see through, because it's the right thing to do. Leave it at that. Don't try and get the date changed, just be non-committal, and tell them you'll do your best. Job offers are very rarely yanked because you didn't met the first deadline for an offer. When they call you 2 days before the deadline and ask if you have an answer, tell them you need "X" amount of time and then you'll give them a decision. Don't say "Can I have two more weeks", say "If you can wait until Jan 15th, I will give you an answer then". Recruiters have been jerked around before and if you provide your own deadline (and hold yourself to it) they'll often go along with it. RF

wavephorm 15y ago

Whatever iPad mobile theme is being used here, please DO NOT use it on your own website. It is not usable, the font is too small, and frequently crashes my iPad.

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

kd1221 15y ago

I graduated right before the peak of the 2000 dotcom bust, and I got a two exploding offers that I didn't accept. The offer I ended up taking was the opposite of an exploding offer: the nebulous offer. I was told I was being tendered an offer. Great! I was ecstatic because the company was a "leader" in the industry I wanted to work in. Ten days and several phone calls later, my offer was still being "worked on." At that point I got impatient and continued interviewing. I had two more offers come in during the formation of the nebulous offer: one of the exploding type and one without conditions. I informed my dream company of the exploding offer and magically the paperwork appeared for their offer the next day. I took it. 6 months later I got laid off along with 20% of the staff. Lesson learned: a company that treats you poorly when you're in recruitment will treat you poorly when you're working for them.

lionhearted 15y ago

Very good article. 100% agree. One thing to keep in mind also is that pushing back against this negotiation tactic is good, but sometimes people do just have to move fast. I had five interviews two Fridays ago, and I offered the second candidate the job - starting on Monday, 20% higher pay than she asked for in her resume, and interesting roles. But I had to know right away, because I had to know what to do with the next set of candidates. Also worth noting is that she didn't have a job currently - her previous company pulled out of China, so there was no risk to her of joining. I was more careful when I recruited a woman who was working at the U.S. Embassy, which was a fantastic stable position with solid pay - I asked her to start here part time for a week or two to make sure there was a fit before quitting a very good job. Anyways, point is, people want decisions fast for many reasons. Look to see if it's in your best interest to decide fast, and decide fast if so. If it's not, push back. Not all fast paces are petty bargaining moves though.

pace 15y ago

"You’re going to spend several years of your life in some cold dark cubicle with a crazy boss who couldn’t program a twenty out of an ATM,"

cookiecaper 15y ago

I think the real answer to this is as simple as disclosure. If you accept the "exploding offer", you should be explicit and clear that you are still considering other positions, and your acceptance is tentative. The company is fully informed of the possibility that you may leave in the near future and it is then their choice if they decide to continue with you or not. If you don't want to provide that level of disclosure, you should inform the recruiter that you won't have a decision by x date, only by y date, and they'll have to live with that. They may continue to pursue or they may forgo your candidacy, but either way you were honest. There are plenty of gigs out there that you can get legitimately, even if a would-be ill-gotten gig is presented first. You shouldn't give in. I don't think it's acceptable to accept an offer with the intent to leave in short order without providing disclosure of that possibility. Justifications like "Microsoft will survive" don't make your actions any more correct or honorable and should not be used. Man up and be honest with your potential employers.

jakejake 15y ago

This article seems very specific to cattle-call hiring of summer interns. The work doesn't begin for several months after the offer is made and this is a somewhat unique situation to students and internships at large companies. When an offer is made for full-time, permanent employment a response is normally expected pretty quickly - within a few days. The interview process may take weeks or months but once the offer is made, it's expected that all parties are fairly serious and you are ready to turn in your 2-weeks notice if you are already employed, or possibly start right away if not. The rules may be different for these two situations. In the latter, I definitely would not suggest accepting an offer and then backing out as a strategy. If you do, at least be aware that you may be burning bridges along the way.

jdietrich 15y ago

General principle: Avoid doing business with people who use the same techniques as telemarketers. An exploding offer is just as low and dirty as "Call within the next 20 minutes and you'll get a bonus set of steak knives, absolutely free!". It's an attempt to take advantage of a basic cognitive bias, loss aversion, in order to coerce you into acting irrationally. If a company really does have a legitimate business reason to take on people in a hurry, they will negotiate. If I need a rush job from my printers, I pay extra. If I need a package sending next day, I pay extra. If I truly, desperately needed an extra employee to work on an urgent project, why on earth wouldn't I pay more to get the best possible candidate? You have no ethical obligations to someone who is trying to deceive and exploit you.