5 ms·

Redbean is a webserver. Go is not a webserver. Redbean cannot be "faster than Go". That's like saying that a car is faster than aluminum. Do you have benchmarks

Redbean is a webserver. Go is not a webserver. Redbean cannot be "faster than Go". That's like saying that a car is faster than aluminum. Do you have benchmarks of Redbean versus Caddy that you can point to? I certainly haven't been able to find any. I also haven't been able to find any in-depth independent benchmarks of Redbean. About the only thing I could find was someone struggling to reproduce the benchmark results.[0] Personally, I've dealt with more than enough memory safety vulnerabilities caused by no programmer being good enough to write safe and correct C (or C++). Those vulnerabilities are easily prevented by choosing just about any other language people are likely to know about... so, I have no desire to deploy anything like Redbean when alternatives exist. It's cool to see the hacks they've been able to do with Cosmopolitan to make cross platform binaries, but hacks like that are not what I want for anything other than educational purposes, at least not until they've been more battle tested. [0]: https://github.com/jart/cosmopolitan/issues/72 https://github.com/jart/cosmopolitan/issues/72

mholt 4y ago
Great points. I also think it's important to stop deploying C to the edge. PS. Go might someday compile for cosmopolitan if someone writes a port for it: https://github.com/golang/go/issues/51900 https://github.com/golang/go/issues/51900
xet7 4y ago
I did see that benchmark result previously but did not find that page yet with quick look. From https://redbean.dev https://redbean.dev is this: "If you want Rust-like promises then redbean can be compiled with ASAN memory safety. Cosmopolitan Libc has the only open source implementation of the Address Sanitizer runtime that's intended for production use. It causes redbean worker processes to crash and log a report should a bug like a buffer overrun, use-after-free, or stack smash occur. This has a marginal impact on performance. It can be useful in environments where interruptions in a service are more desirable than risking the system being compromised." More at https://redbean.dev/#security https://redbean.dev/#security
- coder543 4y ago
  ASAN by itself cannot make those guarantees, from what I understand. Cosmopolitan would also have to make sure never to reuse virtual memory addresses for a start, and there’s actually even more to it than that. So, no, I’m not impressed by arbitrary claims like that. It’s such a bold claim. If it were true, Apple and Google would be adopting this ASAN implementation ASAP since they have tons of C and C++ code that would benefit from better safety at marginal performance cost. In the mean time, if Redbean and Cosmopolitan want Rust-like promises of memory safety… they need to write it in Rust.
  - jart 4y ago
    Uhm you realize Google invented ASAN? It's how they hunt for memory bugs in software like Chrome. If you love Rust, then we're actively working to port Rust to Cosmopolitan. https://github.com/ahgamut/rust-ape-example https://github.com/ahgamut/rust-ape-example Rust in practice has `unsafe` code which needs something like ASAN to make it safer. In order to do that, you need a C library that has first-class support for ASAN where it isn't just an afterthought. I believe that in the future, Cosmopolitan Libc is going to help Rust be even more safe going forward.
    - coder543 4y ago
      I did specify “this ASAN implementation” with emphasis on the “this”, since it was presented higher in the thread as having marginal performance impact and excellent, rust-like safety. Google’s ASAN is not used on all production instances, last I heard, due to the large performance penalty. All sorts of memory safety issues slip past ASAN right now, especially when it is only used outside of production. If ASAN were a silver bullet, C memory safety vulnerabilities would be a distant memory. They’re not. ASAN helps, but it isn’t enough.
      - jart 4y ago
        Are you telling me Rust is the silver bullet? I think it will be once we get it up and running with Cosmo's ASAN module.

mholt 4y ago

Great points. I also think it's important to stop deploying C to the edge. PS. Go might someday compile for cosmopolitan if someone writes a port for it: https://github.com/golang/go/issues/51900 https://github.com/golang/go/issues/51900

xet7 4y ago

I did see that benchmark result previously but did not find that page yet with quick look. From https://redbean.dev https://redbean.dev is this: "If you want Rust-like promises then redbean can be compiled with ASAN memory safety. Cosmopolitan Libc has the only open source implementation of the Address Sanitizer runtime that's intended for production use. It causes redbean worker processes to crash and log a report should a bug like a buffer overrun, use-after-free, or stack smash occur. This has a marginal impact on performance. It can be useful in environments where interruptions in a service are more desirable than risking the system being compromised." More at https://redbean.dev/#security https://redbean.dev/#security

coder543 4y ago
ASAN by itself cannot make those guarantees, from what I understand. Cosmopolitan would also have to make sure never to reuse virtual memory addresses for a start, and there’s actually even more to it than that. So, no, I’m not impressed by arbitrary claims like that. It’s such a bold claim. If it were true, Apple and Google would be adopting this ASAN implementation ASAP since they have tons of C and C++ code that would benefit from better safety at marginal performance cost. In the mean time, if Redbean and Cosmopolitan want Rust-like promises of memory safety… they need to write it in Rust.
- jart 4y ago
  Uhm you realize Google invented ASAN? It's how they hunt for memory bugs in software like Chrome. If you love Rust, then we're actively working to port Rust to Cosmopolitan. https://github.com/ahgamut/rust-ape-example https://github.com/ahgamut/rust-ape-example Rust in practice has `unsafe` code which needs something like ASAN to make it safer. In order to do that, you need a C library that has first-class support for ASAN where it isn't just an afterthought. I believe that in the future, Cosmopolitan Libc is going to help Rust be even more safe going forward.
  - coder543 4y ago
    I did specify “this ASAN implementation” with emphasis on the “this”, since it was presented higher in the thread as having marginal performance impact and excellent, rust-like safety. Google’s ASAN is not used on all production instances, last I heard, due to the large performance penalty. All sorts of memory safety issues slip past ASAN right now, especially when it is only used outside of production. If ASAN were a silver bullet, C memory safety vulnerabilities would be a distant memory. They’re not. ASAN helps, but it isn’t enough.
    - jart 4y ago
      Are you telling me Rust is the silver bullet? I think it will be once we get it up and running with Cosmo's ASAN module.