4 ms·

Have you heard of The Troubles?

dijit 4y ago
Civil unrest is going to happen when you rule for 70 years. When you say "extraordinarily cruel" then maybe you refer to the 2,100,000 to 3,800,000 Bengals you starved to death The murder of 13 people (the inciting incident of the troubles) by the British army is not exactly comparable; even taking into consideration the total losses during that time of 3,500~, hardly comparable at all. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_famine_of_1943 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_famine_of_1943
- JAlexoid 4y ago
  The Troubles - was literally a rebellion violently suppressed... for 3 decades. Let alone all of the Unionists are staunch monarchists and were tightly linked to government institutions. I wasn't comparing anything to anything. You think that comparing The Troubles to bengal Famine, somehow excuses you from writing an obvious false sentence. PS: Civil Unrest isn't Civil Unrest, when the army is literally shooting.
  - dijit 4y ago
    I just don’t see it as “extraordinarily cruel” when comparing to other cruelty committed. I see it as quite significantly reduced. I’m not saying she was perfect, but describing her reign as extraordinarily cruel is a real stretch. I really don’t want to talk about the troubles but if I’m going to be a dick I will mention that the IRA intentionally targeted civilians, I don’t think the military at that time are as black as they’re painted. It’s all villains I’m afraid.
    - JAlexoid 4y ago
      >I really don’t want to talk about the troubles but The "I'm not a racist, but" speech. You're also missing a few words in your rant here.
      - dijit 4y ago
        Shallow dismissals and insinuations I’m a racist(?) are not compelling arguments I’m afraid. Also, three paragraphs do not a rant make. Nice try though.
toyg 4y ago
In British minds, Ireland is not "empire" as much as a backyard they feel naturally entitled to.
- jamiek88 4y ago
  That’s unfair to the vast majority of Brit’s. Scots, welsh, the entire north of England, the working class all don’t feel that way. If fact there’s probably only a small percentage of traditional elites who feel that way.
  - whoooooo123 4y ago
    As a posh guy from the south, I assure you that we don't feel "entitled" to Ireland either.
  - toyg 4y ago
    In public discourse, that mindset is still mainstream. Ireland is a "home nation", not "empire". > there’s probably only a small percentage of traditional elites who feel that way. The way Ireland was publicly handled after 2016 shows that "small percentage" is still firmly in power, and winning solid majorities.
    - whoooooo123 4y ago
      What the hell are you talking about? This mindset is not remotely "mainstream". I've never once in my life heard anyone talk about Ireland as if it's a place that the UK still owns or feels entitled to. > The way Ireland was publicly handled after 2016 Do you mean Northern Ireland? Northern Ireland is a different country from Ireland, and as far as I'm aware the reason it's still part of the UK is because a solid majority of its citizens want to be part of the UK, not because it's been imposed on them from outside.
      - talideon 4y ago
        I believe he's referring to talk post-Brexit of annexing Ireland to get rid of the problem, rubbish about Ireland becoming part of the UK again to "fix Brexit", and to top it all off, Priti Patel's threats[1] to starve Ireland. The post-Brexit discourse in the UK regularly featured threats to Irish sovereignty of various kinds, including from prominent Tories, which makes it sufficiently mainstream to matter. I'd recommend you have a read over what Fintan O'Toole and Tony Connelly have written on Brexit over the past few years. Do I think such opinions are representative of most Britons? No. But they have been a major part of the mainstream discourse peddled by people with prominent voices and in positions of power. There is some part of the English psyche that sees Ireland as a wayward province and not a real sovereign state: witness the moaning and complaining when the UK became a third country about Irish people using the EU lane in airports that we were being "treated specially" - that kind of thinking assumes that Ireland is not its own sovereign state. Also, the "solid majority" in NI isn't so solid anymore. Unionism is on the decline, nationalism is gaining more of a foothold, and the broad apathetic middle is growing. There's a reason why Sinn Féin is now the largest party there. [1] Let's leave out the multiple levels of historical irony in what she said, and just focus on the fact that Ireland can feed itself five times over even though agriculture is now a tiny part of the economy, but the UK doesn't produce enough food to feed itself.

Civil unrest is going to happen when you rule for 70 years. When you say "extraordinarily cruel" then maybe you refer to the 2,100,000 to 3,800,000 Bengals you starved to death The murder of 13 people (the inciting incident of the troubles) by the British army is not exactly comparable; even taking into consideration the total losses during that time of 3,500~, hardly comparable at all. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_famine_of_1943 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_famine_of_1943

JAlexoid 4y ago
The Troubles - was literally a rebellion violently suppressed... for 3 decades. Let alone all of the Unionists are staunch monarchists and were tightly linked to government institutions. I wasn't comparing anything to anything. You think that comparing The Troubles to bengal Famine, somehow excuses you from writing an obvious false sentence. PS: Civil Unrest isn't Civil Unrest, when the army is literally shooting.
- dijit 4y ago
  I just don’t see it as “extraordinarily cruel” when comparing to other cruelty committed. I see it as quite significantly reduced. I’m not saying she was perfect, but describing her reign as extraordinarily cruel is a real stretch. I really don’t want to talk about the troubles but if I’m going to be a dick I will mention that the IRA intentionally targeted civilians, I don’t think the military at that time are as black as they’re painted. It’s all villains I’m afraid.
  - JAlexoid 4y ago
    >I really don’t want to talk about the troubles but The "I'm not a racist, but" speech. You're also missing a few words in your rant here.
    - dijit 4y ago
      Shallow dismissals and insinuations I’m a racist(?) are not compelling arguments I’m afraid. Also, three paragraphs do not a rant make. Nice try though.

toyg 4y ago

In British minds, Ireland is not "empire" as much as a backyard they feel naturally entitled to.

jamiek88 4y ago
That’s unfair to the vast majority of Brit’s. Scots, welsh, the entire north of England, the working class all don’t feel that way. If fact there’s probably only a small percentage of traditional elites who feel that way.
- whoooooo123 4y ago
  As a posh guy from the south, I assure you that we don't feel "entitled" to Ireland either.
- toyg 4y ago
  In public discourse, that mindset is still mainstream. Ireland is a "home nation", not "empire". > there’s probably only a small percentage of traditional elites who feel that way. The way Ireland was publicly handled after 2016 shows that "small percentage" is still firmly in power, and winning solid majorities.
  - whoooooo123 4y ago
    What the hell are you talking about? This mindset is not remotely "mainstream". I've never once in my life heard anyone talk about Ireland as if it's a place that the UK still owns or feels entitled to. > The way Ireland was publicly handled after 2016 Do you mean Northern Ireland? Northern Ireland is a different country from Ireland, and as far as I'm aware the reason it's still part of the UK is because a solid majority of its citizens want to be part of the UK, not because it's been imposed on them from outside.
    - talideon 4y ago
      I believe he's referring to talk post-Brexit of annexing Ireland to get rid of the problem, rubbish about Ireland becoming part of the UK again to "fix Brexit", and to top it all off, Priti Patel's threats[1] to starve Ireland. The post-Brexit discourse in the UK regularly featured threats to Irish sovereignty of various kinds, including from prominent Tories, which makes it sufficiently mainstream to matter. I'd recommend you have a read over what Fintan O'Toole and Tony Connelly have written on Brexit over the past few years. Do I think such opinions are representative of most Britons? No. But they have been a major part of the mainstream discourse peddled by people with prominent voices and in positions of power. There is some part of the English psyche that sees Ireland as a wayward province and not a real sovereign state: witness the moaning and complaining when the UK became a third country about Irish people using the EU lane in airports that we were being "treated specially" - that kind of thinking assumes that Ireland is not its own sovereign state. Also, the "solid majority" in NI isn't so solid anymore. Unionism is on the decline, nationalism is gaining more of a foothold, and the broad apathetic middle is growing. There's a reason why Sinn Féin is now the largest party there. [1] Let's leave out the multiple levels of historical irony in what she said, and just focus on the fact that Ireland can feed itself five times over even though agriculture is now a tiny part of the economy, but the UK doesn't produce enough food to feed itself.