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Just reflect when we (as outsiders) were astonished by North Koreans mourning Kim Jong-Il.

by m000 4y ago

the_third_wave 4y ago
There is just that thing with those prison camps littering North Korea, the recurring famines, the fact that the Kim dynasty claims god-like status and more... so no, this is not a good comparison even though we of course do not really know how much of all this is known to the North-Korean populace.
- rajamaka 4y ago
  All of which is negligible when compared to the atrocities imposed throughout the world by British Colonialism under the sponsorship of the British Monarchy.
  - hackerlight 4y ago
    Again this is disanalogous. Kim actually perpetrates these hideous crimes to this day. The Queen inherited what you're describing and oversaw decolonisation, today largely serving as a figurehead. It'd be like blaming Hirohito's children for the crimes of Hirohito. Children don't inherit their parent's debt. What you could blame her for is not doing more to dismantle the monarchy's non-figurehead powers from the inside. But what you're trying to do is something else entirely and rather gross.
    - Onewildgamer 4y ago
      I agree only on the point that she doesn't inherit the wrong deeds, nothing on her personally. But the place she sits, is from the blood of millions who were enslaved, robbed and were dealt with a rather inhuman treatment to say the least. In the process empire also justified what they did was in the past and cautiously moved away from that without an inch of guilt. It is sad to see people in India/Pakistan/SriLanka mourn for her death, a pity case of Stockholm syndrome. If as you say, she has done good in her life, she should have relinquished the power, disowned the wealth which was directly a result of the horrific colonialism and imperialism. Or at least have some decency and apologise, give back the stolen wealth as a good gesture. Now I wonder, if she would have given up imperialism out of her own volition if she was in power during that period. I am inclining towards No.. it was convenient she didn't have to oversee those horrors. It has been more than 70 years and even now, they hold their crown so precious adorned with the Diamonds taken away forcefully from our lands. What an absolute shame! There are unheard horrors from the colonial countries, which will ache even the stone hearted. Bringing all this in perspective, we don't think she's Kim, but we have the same respect or the lack of it for anyone in their legacy.
      - tarunmuvvala 4y ago
        The biggest hypocrisy is that in realm of modern era, do the monarchs have role to play? UK must move on from monarchy and become republic. The commonwealth nation should also do that. It time for the UK to move into a new era.
        Onewildgamer 4y ago
        It should have happened in the 70s, the 80s or 90s, 2000 or 2010s. I don't think they have any plans for it, and honestly won't care about what others say like we should about them.
      - hackerlight 4y ago
        > she should have relinquished the power, disowned the wealth which was directly a result of the horrific colonialism and imperialism. Or at least have some decency and apologise, give back the stolen wealth as a good gesture. Totally fair criticism. But that's not what I've been seeing from any of the criticism until your post. What I've been seeing has been collective filial guilt assignment. The same psychological process underlying racism and other forms of collective guilt assignment. Hatred directed to the Queen little to do with what she did or didn't do, but because of what British Imperialism did in past before she got the job. The post above ours exemplifies this.
        Onewildgamer 4y ago
        I can see that, it is not what I wish. I don't advocate or recommend any of that to my fellow men. Late Queen and the current British monarchy aren't worthy and I believe they need little of our time spent in empathy. The hatred though is coming from unresolved hurt, which the modern British era is trying hard to forget and won't be easy until they take some sensible directions towards reparations and an honest apology at least from whomever even got to witness, including the late Queen. She had a chance to resolve or ease it in our memories. We'll remember her as someone who lived their life in power, saw the horrors their parents designed upon others and didn't even have courtesy to apologise. So much for the British decency.. Edit: Sorry for the rant. My Grandpa and his kin suffered a lot and was in freedom struggle, it is that lasting impact. I've put it here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32775488 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32775488 If you're a brit, please know that I am not against you or anybody for that matter. Just the monarchy's horrific past.
    - mvc 4y ago
      > Children don't inherit their parent's debt Doesn't stop them from inheriting their parents assets though.
- severino 4y ago
  > we of course do not really know how much of all this is known to the North-Korean populace Maybe they know better than you. At the end, they live there. What you claim to know from North Korea and all that other countries from the "axis of evil" comes from TV.
  - the_third_wave 4y ago
    > What you claim to know from North Korea Not what I claim to know but what I know. The difference between these two is that I don't claim to know what I know while not actually knowing it. The things I know about North Korea may be only part of the truth but there is no doubt about me knowing these things nor a necessity for me to claim knowledge I do not possess. > all that other countries from the "axis of evil" Where does that come from? I did not say anything about any axis of evil. > comes from TV I do not even remember the last time I watched television but I know it is more that 24 years ago since I had one of those contraptions. Nope, I do not get my information from television and have not done so for a very, very long time. What I know about North Korea comes from a diverse mix of sources on the 'net, from books on the subject, from interviews with North Korean escapees and from the odd travel report from people who went there - yes, some people actually visit the place. Satellite imagery provides proof of the existence of camps where escapees said they were so I tend to believe their descriptions of live in that state more than the denials which are thrown their way. How much did the inhabitants of the Soviet Union know about the conditions in GULAG? Those who went through the system and survived to return to society were not eager to tell the tale for fear of repercussions. It took the death of Stalin and Khrushchev's subsequent speech “On the Cult of Personality and its Consequences” at the last day of the party congress of 1956 for some of the information - but only some, and only until Brezhnev came into power - to be the subject of discussion among Soviet citizens. > Maybe they know better than you. Stalin was a monster but to many people in the Soviet Union he was like a god - just like the Kim dynasty in North Korea has a god-like status to many North Koreans. They don't know any better, yet. Let's hope they will get to know the truth, soon.
    - severino 4y ago
      The axis of evil is just the set of countries somebody wanted you to put the focus on. That's why you are so interested in North Korea while at the same time I bet -but I may be wrong- that you have no clue, nor interest, about what happens in many other countries that do much more harm to their inhabitants, and/or to those from other countries, than NK. Talking about Stalin, he is a very respected figure today in Russia. In fact, polls say that he is more popular than ever, and a majority of Russians think he played a positive role for their country. Although we may think he was a monster, that doesn't mean that people can't worship him. Why can't they? If some random guy starts crying for a queen that couldn't care less about him, in the case of these leaders it makes even more sense.

Just reflect when we (as outsiders) were astonished by North Koreans mourning Kim Jong-Il.

by m000 4y ago

Just reflect when we (as outsiders) were astonished by North Koreans mourning Kim Jong-Il.

There is just that thing with those prison camps littering North Korea, the recurring famines, the fact that the Kim dynasty claims god-like status and more... so no, this is not a good comparison even though we of course do not really know how much of all this is known to the North-Korean populace.

rajamaka 4y ago
All of which is negligible when compared to the atrocities imposed throughout the world by British Colonialism under the sponsorship of the British Monarchy.
- hackerlight 4y ago
  Again this is disanalogous. Kim actually perpetrates these hideous crimes to this day. The Queen inherited what you're describing and oversaw decolonisation, today largely serving as a figurehead. It'd be like blaming Hirohito's children for the crimes of Hirohito. Children don't inherit their parent's debt. What you could blame her for is not doing more to dismantle the monarchy's non-figurehead powers from the inside. But what you're trying to do is something else entirely and rather gross.
  - Onewildgamer 4y ago
    I agree only on the point that she doesn't inherit the wrong deeds, nothing on her personally. But the place she sits, is from the blood of millions who were enslaved, robbed and were dealt with a rather inhuman treatment to say the least. In the process empire also justified what they did was in the past and cautiously moved away from that without an inch of guilt. It is sad to see people in India/Pakistan/SriLanka mourn for her death, a pity case of Stockholm syndrome. If as you say, she has done good in her life, she should have relinquished the power, disowned the wealth which was directly a result of the horrific colonialism and imperialism. Or at least have some decency and apologise, give back the stolen wealth as a good gesture. Now I wonder, if she would have given up imperialism out of her own volition if she was in power during that period. I am inclining towards No.. it was convenient she didn't have to oversee those horrors. It has been more than 70 years and even now, they hold their crown so precious adorned with the Diamonds taken away forcefully from our lands. What an absolute shame! There are unheard horrors from the colonial countries, which will ache even the stone hearted. Bringing all this in perspective, we don't think she's Kim, but we have the same respect or the lack of it for anyone in their legacy.
    - tarunmuvvala 4y ago
      The biggest hypocrisy is that in realm of modern era, do the monarchs have role to play? UK must move on from monarchy and become republic. The commonwealth nation should also do that. It time for the UK to move into a new era.
      - Onewildgamer 4y ago
        It should have happened in the 70s, the 80s or 90s, 2000 or 2010s. I don't think they have any plans for it, and honestly won't care about what others say like we should about them.
    - hackerlight 4y ago
      > she should have relinquished the power, disowned the wealth which was directly a result of the horrific colonialism and imperialism. Or at least have some decency and apologise, give back the stolen wealth as a good gesture. Totally fair criticism. But that's not what I've been seeing from any of the criticism until your post. What I've been seeing has been collective filial guilt assignment. The same psychological process underlying racism and other forms of collective guilt assignment. Hatred directed to the Queen little to do with what she did or didn't do, but because of what British Imperialism did in past before she got the job. The post above ours exemplifies this.
      - Onewildgamer 4y ago
        I can see that, it is not what I wish. I don't advocate or recommend any of that to my fellow men. Late Queen and the current British monarchy aren't worthy and I believe they need little of our time spent in empathy. The hatred though is coming from unresolved hurt, which the modern British era is trying hard to forget and won't be easy until they take some sensible directions towards reparations and an honest apology at least from whomever even got to witness, including the late Queen. She had a chance to resolve or ease it in our memories. We'll remember her as someone who lived their life in power, saw the horrors their parents designed upon others and didn't even have courtesy to apologise. So much for the British decency.. Edit: Sorry for the rant. My Grandpa and his kin suffered a lot and was in freedom struggle, it is that lasting impact. I've put it here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32775488 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32775488 If you're a brit, please know that I am not against you or anybody for that matter. Just the monarchy's horrific past.
  - mvc 4y ago
    > Children don't inherit their parent's debt Doesn't stop them from inheriting their parents assets though.
severino 4y ago
> we of course do not really know how much of all this is known to the North-Korean populace Maybe they know better than you. At the end, they live there. What you claim to know from North Korea and all that other countries from the "axis of evil" comes from TV.
- the_third_wave 4y ago
  > What you claim to know from North Korea Not what I claim to know but what I know. The difference between these two is that I don't claim to know what I know while not actually knowing it. The things I know about North Korea may be only part of the truth but there is no doubt about me knowing these things nor a necessity for me to claim knowledge I do not possess. > all that other countries from the "axis of evil" Where does that come from? I did not say anything about any axis of evil. > comes from TV I do not even remember the last time I watched television but I know it is more that 24 years ago since I had one of those contraptions. Nope, I do not get my information from television and have not done so for a very, very long time. What I know about North Korea comes from a diverse mix of sources on the 'net, from books on the subject, from interviews with North Korean escapees and from the odd travel report from people who went there - yes, some people actually visit the place. Satellite imagery provides proof of the existence of camps where escapees said they were so I tend to believe their descriptions of live in that state more than the denials which are thrown their way. How much did the inhabitants of the Soviet Union know about the conditions in GULAG? Those who went through the system and survived to return to society were not eager to tell the tale for fear of repercussions. It took the death of Stalin and Khrushchev's subsequent speech “On the Cult of Personality and its Consequences” at the last day of the party congress of 1956 for some of the information - but only some, and only until Brezhnev came into power - to be the subject of discussion among Soviet citizens. > Maybe they know better than you. Stalin was a monster but to many people in the Soviet Union he was like a god - just like the Kim dynasty in North Korea has a god-like status to many North Koreans. They don't know any better, yet. Let's hope they will get to know the truth, soon.
  - severino 4y ago
    The axis of evil is just the set of countries somebody wanted you to put the focus on. That's why you are so interested in North Korea while at the same time I bet -but I may be wrong- that you have no clue, nor interest, about what happens in many other countries that do much more harm to their inhabitants, and/or to those from other countries, than NK. Talking about Stalin, he is a very respected figure today in Russia. In fact, polls say that he is more popular than ever, and a majority of Russians think he played a positive role for their country. Although we may think he was a monster, that doesn't mean that people can't worship him. Why can't they? If some random guy starts crying for a queen that couldn't care less about him, in the case of these leaders it makes even more sense.