5 ms·

Surprised Ketamine isn't listed. I figured they'd lump that in. On the other hand, ketamine is extremely addictive, despite what you might read online. I know s

by ben174 4y ago

Surprised Ketamine isn't listed. I figured they'd lump that in. On the other hand, ketamine is extremely addictive, despite what you might read online. I know several people who have given up everything to sustain their Ketamine habit.

bsedlm 4y ago
Ketamine is not a psychedelic (in the hallucinogenic sense)
- acchow 4y ago
  In which sense is ketamine a psychedelic?
pengaru 4y ago
It also has bladder toxicity issues, it's not uncommon for ketamine addicts to piss blood AIUI. In extreme cases bladders have required permanent removal. Edit: VICE even named their recent Ketamine episode "Pissing Blood" for this reason. [0] [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99XQY7Elwhc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99XQY7Elwhc
- jjulius 4y ago
  >... it's not uncommon for ketamine addicts to piss blood AIUI. I had no idea this was a thing until the morning after I woke up from my first time partying around people who were using it. Someone took a leak and I hear, "Hah! Yep, there's the good ol' orange K piss," and I couldn't help but be surprised that it sounded like they were laughing at the fact they were pissing blood. I should clarify - nothing against ketamine in small doses recreationally, just take care of yourself.
  - totony 4y ago
    ketamine also has been shown to cause brain damage in addicts afaik.
    - worik 4y ago
      > ketamine also has been shown to cause brain damage in addicts afaik. I have to call you on that. Very irresponsible to say things like that with out context. Like: Where does that factoid come from? Compare it to other known neuro toxins - alcohol obviously.
      - jjulius 4y ago
        Not trying to defend or back up the person you're replying to, but a cursory Google for "ketamine brain damage" puts this as result numero uno... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3713393/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3713393/
        worik 4y ago
        "Brain damages in ketamine addicts as revealed by magnetic resonance imaging" No. I will not take that seriously. "magnetic resonance imaging" of brains has very little value (not none) yet. I would pay attention to behavioural studies. I hate ketamine. I hate its effects on me, and I really hate its effects on my friends. Makes them blithering boring idiots. I would not be devastated if there were serious health effects of moderate ketamine use (as there are for alcohol) But this is bullshit anti drug propaganda. Just because the drug it is attacking is IMO a horrible drug, does not make it better
        jjulius 4y ago
        Ok then.
- sneak 4y ago
  Not uncommon for addicts, but quite uncommon for users. You have to use high doses extremely regularly for this to happen. The vast majority of users do not use it at high enough dosage or frequency to get anywhere near this.
travisjungroth 4y ago
This resolution mentions SB 519, a state bill, and looks to be matching it. SB 519 had ketamine but dropped it since it was more contentious than other drugs.
tbalsam 4y ago
"Extremely addictive" is a bit of a misnomer I believe, in terms of both the scientific literature and also much consensus around treatment-focused communities. Please stop spreading this. What I can say is a similar thing, that it can cause _dependence_ very rapidly. It can be extraordinarily useful for healing certain mental health conditions, but tolerance builds rapidly, and people on the street are often trying to K-hole repeatedly, a basically pointless exercise. Sustained low-dosage usage seems to have fewer bladder effects, the tolerance combined with people using it as an escape (and preferring K-holes), as well as people who are already mentally broken having a nice lever to pull, is what can cause it to get out of hand. This is not everybody, however. I think it depends upon the circles, and I think it is hard to see people do that regardless of the world. But your circles around you are also not the world at large. Please stay factually rooted in what you're sharing online. To me, substances that would be dangerous would be directly opioidergic or dopaminergic substances (opioids, nicotine, opioidergic hallucinogens) as opposed to one that is opioid _sensitizing_, like Ketamine (which lets it be a kind of opioid replacement for pain relief clinics, for example. Even infusions are helpful.) It really is important that we all don't take our personal experiences to say "don't listen to what you hear online" too strongly, I guess even myself included here. Hope that helps shine an alternative perspective on the matter.
- olalonde 4y ago
  What's the difference between "extremely addictive" and "can cause _dependence_ very rapidly"? Don't they mean the same thing?
- nick__m 4y ago
  Ketamine, is foremost a NDMA antagonist (Ki=0.25uM ), sure it act on some type of opioid receptor also as an antagonist (a blocker) (Ki=12uM at KOR2), but this effect is 50x less important. Other NMDA antagonist like PCP that don't act on the opiate receptors are as strong if not stronger at pain suppression. Ketamine is also a direct dopamine agonist (Ki=0.5uM at D2).
  - tbalsam 4y ago
    It is indeed a D2 agonist and NMDA antagonist (I forget which site). I think D2 gets much maligned due to the potential induction of psychotomimetic effects at this receptor but remember too that if one subscribes to the D2-activation autoregulation hypothesis of why amphetamines work in ADHD then having a direct agonist available could be a very good thing. The opioidergic effects are indirect by re-sensitization (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3856727/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3856727/) which is why it is used by pain clinics and possibly might contribute to antidepressant effects. One potential theory hanging about is that if appears to indirectly agonize AMPA through blocking NMDA, and this is what leads to mTOR and then eventually BDNF modulation. However, if activating AMPA is the main goal to getting Ketamine's antidepressant effects, one could just simply take a racetam and be done with it. Racetams seem to be helpful but not drastic like Ketamine here is, which likely I think is because of some concert of fortuitous effects unique to Ketamine itself. There are other offshoots, like how some metabolites of Ketamine affect how Ketamine is processed, leading to potentially incredibly complex cascades of metabolite interactions in the brain. But this is even more in the weeds and I've rambled enough. In any case, something special is going on with Ketamine. Otherwise people could just take massive amounts of Agmatine (and L-Lysine along with it for the wise, mouth sores are not desirable) and be done with it. Interestingly, this seems to work for some, but it seems like more than the NMDA is what is necessary (for a side thread: see sarcosine, some of the related methylation supply issues, and how it's an NMDA _agonist_ at the glycine site but still has rapid antidepressant effects. Very strange, this whole business). I love this topic so I get verbal on it, hope it was an enjoyable ride. :) :thumbsup:
sva_ 4y ago
I don't think it makes a lot of sense calling Ketamine a psychedelic. It is very much unlike any known psychedelic, and acts in a very different way in the body as well.

by ben174 4y ago

bsedlm 4y ago

Ketamine is not a psychedelic (in the hallucinogenic sense)

acchow 4y ago
In which sense is ketamine a psychedelic?

pengaru 4y ago

It also has bladder toxicity issues, it's not uncommon for ketamine addicts to piss blood AIUI. In extreme cases bladders have required permanent removal. Edit: VICE even named their recent Ketamine episode "Pissing Blood" for this reason. [0] [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99XQY7Elwhc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99XQY7Elwhc

jjulius 4y ago
>... it's not uncommon for ketamine addicts to piss blood AIUI. I had no idea this was a thing until the morning after I woke up from my first time partying around people who were using it. Someone took a leak and I hear, "Hah! Yep, there's the good ol' orange K piss," and I couldn't help but be surprised that it sounded like they were laughing at the fact they were pissing blood. I should clarify - nothing against ketamine in small doses recreationally, just take care of yourself.
- totony 4y ago
  ketamine also has been shown to cause brain damage in addicts afaik.
  - worik 4y ago
    > ketamine also has been shown to cause brain damage in addicts afaik. I have to call you on that. Very irresponsible to say things like that with out context. Like: Where does that factoid come from? Compare it to other known neuro toxins - alcohol obviously.
    - jjulius 4y ago
      Not trying to defend or back up the person you're replying to, but a cursory Google for "ketamine brain damage" puts this as result numero uno... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3713393/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3713393/
      - worik 4y ago
        "Brain damages in ketamine addicts as revealed by magnetic resonance imaging" No. I will not take that seriously. "magnetic resonance imaging" of brains has very little value (not none) yet. I would pay attention to behavioural studies. I hate ketamine. I hate its effects on me, and I really hate its effects on my friends. Makes them blithering boring idiots. I would not be devastated if there were serious health effects of moderate ketamine use (as there are for alcohol) But this is bullshit anti drug propaganda. Just because the drug it is attacking is IMO a horrible drug, does not make it better
        jjulius 4y ago
        Ok then.
sneak 4y ago
Not uncommon for addicts, but quite uncommon for users. You have to use high doses extremely regularly for this to happen. The vast majority of users do not use it at high enough dosage or frequency to get anywhere near this.

travisjungroth 4y ago

This resolution mentions SB 519, a state bill, and looks to be matching it. SB 519 had ketamine but dropped it since it was more contentious than other drugs.

tbalsam 4y ago

"Extremely addictive" is a bit of a misnomer I believe, in terms of both the scientific literature and also much consensus around treatment-focused communities. Please stop spreading this. What I can say is a similar thing, that it can cause _dependence_ very rapidly. It can be extraordinarily useful for healing certain mental health conditions, but tolerance builds rapidly, and people on the street are often trying to K-hole repeatedly, a basically pointless exercise. Sustained low-dosage usage seems to have fewer bladder effects, the tolerance combined with people using it as an escape (and preferring K-holes), as well as people who are already mentally broken having a nice lever to pull, is what can cause it to get out of hand. This is not everybody, however. I think it depends upon the circles, and I think it is hard to see people do that regardless of the world. But your circles around you are also not the world at large. Please stay factually rooted in what you're sharing online. To me, substances that would be dangerous would be directly opioidergic or dopaminergic substances (opioids, nicotine, opioidergic hallucinogens) as opposed to one that is opioid _sensitizing_, like Ketamine (which lets it be a kind of opioid replacement for pain relief clinics, for example. Even infusions are helpful.) It really is important that we all don't take our personal experiences to say "don't listen to what you hear online" too strongly, I guess even myself included here. Hope that helps shine an alternative perspective on the matter.

olalonde 4y ago
What's the difference between "extremely addictive" and "can cause _dependence_ very rapidly"? Don't they mean the same thing?
nick__m 4y ago
Ketamine, is foremost a NDMA antagonist (Ki=0.25uM ), sure it act on some type of opioid receptor also as an antagonist (a blocker) (Ki=12uM at KOR2), but this effect is 50x less important. Other NMDA antagonist like PCP that don't act on the opiate receptors are as strong if not stronger at pain suppression. Ketamine is also a direct dopamine agonist (Ki=0.5uM at D2).
- tbalsam 4y ago
  It is indeed a D2 agonist and NMDA antagonist (I forget which site). I think D2 gets much maligned due to the potential induction of psychotomimetic effects at this receptor but remember too that if one subscribes to the D2-activation autoregulation hypothesis of why amphetamines work in ADHD then having a direct agonist available could be a very good thing. The opioidergic effects are indirect by re-sensitization (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3856727/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3856727/) which is why it is used by pain clinics and possibly might contribute to antidepressant effects. One potential theory hanging about is that if appears to indirectly agonize AMPA through blocking NMDA, and this is what leads to mTOR and then eventually BDNF modulation. However, if activating AMPA is the main goal to getting Ketamine's antidepressant effects, one could just simply take a racetam and be done with it. Racetams seem to be helpful but not drastic like Ketamine here is, which likely I think is because of some concert of fortuitous effects unique to Ketamine itself. There are other offshoots, like how some metabolites of Ketamine affect how Ketamine is processed, leading to potentially incredibly complex cascades of metabolite interactions in the brain. But this is even more in the weeds and I've rambled enough. In any case, something special is going on with Ketamine. Otherwise people could just take massive amounts of Agmatine (and L-Lysine along with it for the wise, mouth sores are not desirable) and be done with it. Interestingly, this seems to work for some, but it seems like more than the NMDA is what is necessary (for a side thread: see sarcosine, some of the related methylation supply issues, and how it's an NMDA _agonist_ at the glycine site but still has rapid antidepressant effects. Very strange, this whole business). I love this topic so I get verbal on it, hope it was an enjoyable ride. :) :thumbsup:

sva_ 4y ago

I don't think it makes a lot of sense calling Ketamine a psychedelic. It is very much unlike any known psychedelic, and acts in a very different way in the body as well.